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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 4:39:39 GMT -5
What’s good about entertainment, whether it be wrestling, comicbooks or films, is that there’s something for everyone. Some people like certain things, other people don’t. The CRISIS discussion by @jaska is a case in point. Some like it, some don’t.
Is consensus (or near consensus) possible in the world of entertainment? Is there something that is almost universally liked or disliked?
In my life, I’ve never met anyone who doesn’t like BACK TO THE FUTURE. Sure, there must be someone on Earth who doesn’t, but every conversation I’ve had about it has been positive. E.T. is another example. Even my mother, who probably doesn’t gravitate towards sci-fi like other genres, liked that.
On the other side of the coin, there are things that seem almost universally disliked. I can’t say I’ve known anyone who liked the movie HOWARD THE DUCK. I didn’t. But there must be someone on Earth who does.
What of comics? What might be universally liked/disliked? It’s all about perception, of course. And who you speak with. As I type this, perhaps the postman will ring the door and start telling me how much he disliked BACK TO THE FUTURE (or maybe that won’t happen).
I can only go by the conversations I’ve had, but here’s some examples: Peter David’s Hulk run, Greg Pak’s Hulk run, BATMAN: YEAR ONE, etc. Any time I have had a conversation about those runs, it’s been positive. On the other side of the coin, SPIDER-MAN: CHAPTER ONE, which is poor, seems to have been universally panned, whether by people I’ve chatted with or comic journalists. Can’t say I’ve heard much positivity about THE CLONE SAGA as a whole.
Disappointingly for me, I have heard a lot of negativity about Bronze Age Spidey, but that’s one of my favourite eras, whether it be due to the development of Parker’s supporting cast, new villains showing up, Parker maturing, etc. So here’s your opportunity to let me know I’m not the only Bronze Age Spidey fan on Earth.
What do you think is almost universally liked/disliked?
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 28, 2022 5:05:42 GMT -5
For the record, I didn't like Batman: Year One (the art, yes; the story, not at all).
Cei-U!
Just sayin'!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 5:32:10 GMT -5
I hadn't really thought about this as consciously before, but I do wonder if comic books tend to have less consensus on "timeless classics" than some other areas like say movies. When I was reading comic books back in the 80's and finally had a lot more interaction at comic book shops and conventions to discuss this kind of stuff, it felt like there were certainly well regarded "historic creators" and periods and whatnot, but it wasn't like there were broadly standard trade collections of "essential reading" that were either available or everyone agreed on. "Go read Kirby you young punk" was kind of the gist at times.
As stated a number of times before, personally I always loved much older material. I don't know if I can think of much though that is almost universally remembered and liked (or even disliked for that matter). Maybe Will Eisner's The Spirit just going on what I think has stayed somewhat visible (and I may be completely wrong on even that), I don't recall many people disliking (at least very respected broadly even if not folks' cup of tea). Back on the 80's, I think Watchmen tends to be fairly well and broadly liked still, not sure if it approaches universal but again seems to have some "Back to the Future" timeless appeal.
It's a great topic I'm sure I'll ponder more. A bit of an aside, but it reminds me a bit theme-wise of what my daughter tells me all "Zoomers" have agreed on. There are 3 people nobody is allowed to hate on: Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and Steve from Blue's Clues. Everyone else is fair game!
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Post by MWGallaher on Mar 28, 2022 7:01:07 GMT -5
Maybe near consensus on some comics, but not much. I'm really not a contrarian, and I've had an extremely broad exposure to and appreciation of American comic books, but I genuinely don't share the consensus on Dark Knight Returns, I think Peter David's Hulk run was contrary to the fundamental premise of the series, Bone by Jeff Smith did nothing for me. If I had to pick a comic book that was generally agreed on to be pretty darn good, I'd point to Kirby & Lee on Fantastic Four, but I'm sure there are plenty of others that view that with the same lack of enthusiasm I feel for Batman Year One.
Oh, and I saw E.T. for the first time ever last year. Given the decades of cultural exposure and near-universal praise along with advances in special effects, changes in cinematic technique and storytelling, and other evolutions, the movie fell flat for me. I felt like the old man in the retirement home that missed the magic game of "Kick the Can" on the Twilight Zone, but it was just too late for me.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 28, 2022 7:22:02 GMT -5
I saw E.T. when it was first released and found it not bad but... disappointing. Too sickly sweet, too emotionally manipulative for my taste, then and now. Maybe if I'd been 12 instead of 24 when I first saw it, I'd have reacted differently. As it is, I still consider it one of Speilberg's least interesting films.
Cei-U!
I summon the different drummer!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 7:25:54 GMT -5
Criticisms of E.T. are like buses. I wait ages for one and two come along at once! ;-)
Seriously, it is good to know what people like and dislike. I remember hearing for years about how Sean Connery was people’s favourite Bond, but I always preferred Roger Moore. As for comics, I have to say, THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS elicited little emotion from me.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 7:33:57 GMT -5
You can add a 3rd for E.T., I never greatly liked it either (ok really at best). I saw it when it came out, I was 9 at the time. It was much hyped, and with Raiders of the Lost Ark being such a phenomenon the year before, there was a lot of anticipation with Spielberg being at the helm.
Verbatim what Cei-U! said honestly.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 28, 2022 8:06:23 GMT -5
I dislike ET greatly. I can not even try and enjoy it as an adult. My mother took me to see it when I was like 3 and son of a &^$% gave me nightmares for years later. So yeah my case might be a special case, but I did watch it as an adult again but still thought it was much like what Cei-U said.
I do still like Reese's Pieces though.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2022 8:09:01 GMT -5
E.T. gave you nightmares? Something as innocuous and friendly as E.T.? Please, don’t watch ALIEN…  |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Mar 28, 2022 8:11:03 GMT -5
To be fair, when I first watched Aliens as a teen it gave me nightmares too. However as an adult the Aliens franchise, and HR Giger's art in general are some of my favorites.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 8:11:16 GMT -5
One of the many things I love about this community is that we don't have much Kool Aid available. Short of having any Bob Kane defenders around, we seem to have just about every point of view represented, whereas facebook groups are often a hivemind where independent thought gets slammed. It is so refreshing to find folks here who don't think The Killing Joke was the end all, be all Joker story, or that John Byrne is the greatest comic creator of all time.
That being said, I can think of at least two iconic stories that I've never seen anyone slam around here: Untold Legend of The Batman and Whatever Happened to The Man of Tomorrow?
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Post by MDG on Mar 28, 2022 8:12:49 GMT -5
I don't know that you're going to find anything that's universally acclaimed in any form of art, if only because there are some folks who often lean contrary to popular opinion (and yes, I'm raising my own hand on that one.)
But comics are probably even more fraught for a couple reasons:
There is no generally-accepted canon
Despite recent progress in reprints, there is still a lot that's not easily or affordably accessible (especially if you want to include newspaper strips).
Right off the bat, there are a bunch of opposing fan bases: Marvel/DC, old stuff/current stuff, mainstream/indie, writer-focused/artist-focused, long-form/short form, creator-focus/character focus...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 8:15:21 GMT -5
There is no generally-accepted canon I'd love to see a thread specifically about this. I certainly feel there are some key books and runs that any classic comic fan is expected to be aware of. |
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Post by MDG on Mar 28, 2022 8:35:12 GMT -5
There is no generally-accepted canon I'd love to see a thread specifically about this. I certainly feel there are some key books and runs that any classic comic fan is expected to be aware of. I think even here, it would be tough going. I'm also afraid it would become a collection that 20% pre-1985 and 80% 1985-present.
Also, unlike say movies or paintings or novels, the definition is a lot mushier. For example, to take three things that might be in there:
"Master Race" is 8 pages Kirby-Lee's FF is like 100 issues Zap Comics is 15 issues over something like 40 years
One more: "Master Race" is a standalone story The Little Lulu story "Five Little Babies" is an example of a character acting exactly how expected
Dark Knight uses a well-established character and upends expectations
Can you rate them all the same way?
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 28, 2022 8:44:59 GMT -5
I'd love to see a thread specifically about this. I certainly feel there are some key books and runs that any classic comic fan is expected to be aware of. I think even here, it would be tough going. I'm also afraid it would become a collection that 20% pre-1985 and 80% 1985-present. Also, unlike say movies or paintings or novels, the definition is a lot mushier. For example, to take three things that might be in there: "Master Race" is 8 pages Kirby-Lee's FF is like 100 issues Zap Comics is 15 issues over something like 40 years One more: "Master Race" is a standalone story The Little Lulu story "Five Little Babies" is an example of a character acting exactly how expected
Dark Knight uses a well-established character and upends expectations Can you rate them all the same way?
Even that discussion would be fascinating. When I first got serious about comics, I stumbled upon a documentary on TV, and I remember nothing about it other than the "definitive" comics it discussed. It was where I first learned about the Death of Gwen Stacey, Wonder Woman losing her powers, Green Lantern getting shamed by the Black man on the roof, and the Spider-Man and Green Lantern/Green Arrow drug issues, amongst other things. That was my first sense of a partial "classic comics canon". |
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