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Post by Nowhere Man on Nov 13, 2014 21:28:05 GMT -5
I think where we're getting hung up on how much validity we should give our capacity to imagine fantastic creatures and concepts in our heads, that have no day-to-day basis in our experience, and then point to science and state that it they can't technically prove that it doesn't exist. This borders dangerously close to being a meaningless exercise.
It makes me think of Lawrence Krauss when he states that most physicists don't think enough of the question "Does god exist?" to even ask it or take it seriously.
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Post by benday-dot on Nov 13, 2014 21:44:39 GMT -5
Just noticed this thread in time to bump up the total BS bar to the leading position it rightfully occupies.
Ghosts, God, Gremlins, Galactus... a great gamut of glorious legend.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 13, 2014 22:15:39 GMT -5
I think where we're getting hung up on how much validity we should give our capacity to imagine fantastic creatures and concepts in our heads, that have no day-to-day basis in our experience, Clearly you haven't been reading my posts. It's not really a debate if you just readily fall back to your own assumptions without considering the other perspective. And of course it's a meaningless exercise. Most debates are. We're not going to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural anymore than we're going to solve peace in the Middle East. |
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Post by benday-dot on Nov 13, 2014 22:37:03 GMT -5
The thing is science isn't based on assumptions. It is based on fact and theory. The world of belief; however, is fully invested in assumption. Much like Fox Mulder I really want to believe in supernatural phenomena because it is both fascinating and endlessly rich in excitement and imagination, but I just can't buy it. My entire being rebels against the embrace of that which reeks of the mystical and metaphysical. It requires a leap I just cannot bring myself to take without feeling delusional.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2014 22:44:31 GMT -5
We're not going to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural a nymore than we're going to solve peace in the Middle East.Well, crap. There goes my weekend. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 13, 2014 23:14:00 GMT -5
The thing is science isn't based on assumptions. It is based on fact and theory. The world of belief; however, is fully invested in assumption. Much like Fox Mulder I really want to believe in supernatural phenomena because it is both fascinating and endlessly rich in excitement and imagination, but I just can't buy it. My entire being rebels against the embrace of that which reeks of the mystical and metaphysical. It requires a leap I just cannot bring myself to take without feeling delusional. I totally get and respect that. I hope you can also get and respect that, for some people, it takes more of a leap of faith to assume that there isn't anything beyond what modern science tells us is there, especially for those who believe they've personally experienced something that science cannot explain. |
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Post by benday-dot on Nov 13, 2014 23:27:12 GMT -5
The thing is science isn't based on assumptions. It is based on fact and theory. The world of belief; however, is fully invested in assumption. Much like Fox Mulder I really want to believe in supernatural phenomena because it is both fascinating and endlessly rich in excitement and imagination, but I just can't buy it. My entire being rebels against the embrace of that which reeks of the mystical and metaphysical. It requires a leap I just cannot bring myself to take without feeling delusional. I totally get and respect that. I hope you can also get and respect that, for some people, it takes more of a leap of faith to assume that there isn't anything beyond what modern science tells us is there, especially for those who believe they've personally experienced something that science cannot explain. Of course Shax. There is no one around here I respect more than you. Without you we wouldn't be here, and that's no leap of faith to say it. And I agree there is a whole universe or multiverse beyond the current telling of science. And it may even be like Zeno's Paradox, in which science will never overtake the unknown. Science itself first and foremost humbles itself before the great lacuna of knowledge. Still, I have to say that it does indeed remain a leap of faith, and in that there is no shame and perhaps only courage, to posit the supernatural as a viable answer to the great unknown. The unknown may just be unknown, with nary a ghost about. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Nov 13, 2014 23:50:57 GMT -5
I think where we're getting hung up on how much validity we should give our capacity to imagine fantastic creatures and concepts in our heads, that have no day-to-day basis in our experience, Clearly you haven't been reading my posts. It's not really a debate if you just readily fall back to your own assumptions without considering the other perspective. And of course it's a meaningless exercise. Most debates are. We're not going to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural anymore than we're going to solve peace in the Middle East. I've been reading your posts. Isn't the perspective that science can't disprove the existence of ghosts, or unicorns, or elves, etc., so it's not rational to dismiss those concepts out of hand? My point was not that the debate is pointless. Debates typically function as mental exercise anyway, since nobody really changes their opinions because of some clever point from the other side. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Nov 14, 2014 0:16:19 GMT -5
The thing is science isn't based on assumptions. It is based on fact and theory. The world of belief; however, is fully invested in assumption. Much like Fox Mulder I really want to believe in supernatural phenomena because it is both fascinating and endlessly rich in excitement and imagination, but I just can't buy it. My entire being rebels against the embrace of that which reeks of the mystical and metaphysical. It requires a leap I just cannot bring myself to take without feeling delusional. I totally get and respect that. I hope you can also get and respect that, for some people, it takes more of a leap of faith to assume that there isn't anything beyond what modern science tells us is there, especially for those who believe they've personally experienced something that science cannot explain. What rational person, even the most atheistic, would proclaim that modern science has all the answers? Even the people that do say stuff like that, calling it a "leap of faith" is an odd choice of words since they're basing this off their knowledge of current facts (as flawed as that is, I admit) and not "faith" in the same way the theist does. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 14, 2014 0:43:44 GMT -5
Of course Shax. There is no one around here I respect more than you. Without you we wouldn't be here, and that's no leap of faith to say it. No no no no no. If my creating this place means people are going to bow down to me in debates, I retract it all. Stand your ground, benday  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 14, 2014 0:45:50 GMT -5
Clearly you haven't been reading my posts. It's not really a debate if you just readily fall back to your own assumptions without considering the other perspective. And of course it's a meaningless exercise. Most debates are. We're not going to prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural anymore than we're going to solve peace in the Middle East. I've been reading your posts. Isn't the perspective that science can't disprove the existence of ghosts, or unicorns, or elves, etc., so it's not rational to dismiss those concepts out of hand? Not exactly. I absolutely drew a distinct difference between believing in magical creatures/beings and believing in something more abstract like the supernatural, and I absolutely addressed the importance of personal experience, which you brought up as if I hadn't. |
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Post by shaxper on Nov 14, 2014 0:48:30 GMT -5
I totally get and respect that. I hope you can also get and respect that, for some people, it takes more of a leap of faith to assume that there isn't anything beyond what modern science tells us is there, especially for those who believe they've personally experienced something that science cannot explain. What rational person, even the most atheistic, would proclaim that modern science has all the answers? Even the people that do say stuff like that, calling it a "leap of faith" is an odd choice of words since they're basing this off their knowledge of current facts (as flawed as that is, I admit) and not "faith" in the same way the theist does. So, if we acknowledge that modern science doesn't have all the answers, where's the debate? Some people say "I think there may be something to ghosts, but I don't pretend to know for sure," and others say, "Well science hasn't validated their existence, but science has its limits, so I don't pretend to know for sure." Essentially, it's more or less the same thing, albeit with some people leaning more towards one end of the spectrum and others leaning more towards the other. |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Nov 14, 2014 1:16:14 GMT -5
I never dismissed personal experience. I believe in my first post I mentioned that I myself have had some experiences that seemed to be supernatural at first, but I've since chalked it up to the power of suggestion. The crux of my point is that I'm at the point where I feel that the very concept of the supernatural is an impossibility. I freely admit that since we haven't learned everything about physics and quantum mechanics that that can't be proven, but given what we have learned, I think there is plenty of room within the natural order for extraordinary occurrences without even getting near "the god of the gaps" argument or "magic did it." (Not that anyone here is actually doing that.)
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Post by shaxper on Nov 14, 2014 1:40:33 GMT -5
The crux of my point is that I'm at the point where I feel that the very concept of the supernatural is an impossibility. I freely admit that since we haven't learned everything about physics and quantum mechanics that that can't be proven, but given what we have learned, I think there is plenty of room within the natural order for extraordinary occurrences without even getting near "the god of the gaps" argument or "magic did it." (Not that anyone here is actually doing that.) Fair enough, so long as we agree that your opinion is an opinion and not a fact |
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Post by Nowhere Man on Nov 14, 2014 3:12:23 GMT -5
If I ever get to the point where I start to believe that my opinions are facts (In other words, if I ever turn into John Byrne.) you have my permission to ban me from the internet for life.
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