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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 17:58:50 GMT -5
Chasing the whims of the market is what creates the ramp for the shark jump..... -M it wasn't chasing. It was staying in business. Possibly, but it meant changing your business model to accommodate the whims of the market. Since market whims constantly change, once you start that, it's a never ending process. It's no longer a storytelling business even as a secondary feature, as second guessing the market is the antithesis of good storytelling. It's purely a business about moving units anyway possible-which is a 180 degree shift to all the things that made the DC Renaissance of the mid 80s what it was. There it was master the craft and put out the best possible product and see what sells. After it became put out stuff that sells, period. It's staying ion business sure, I understand and even sympathize with that, but it came at a price in other areas that I as a fan and supporter of good storytelling, regret having to pay. -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 18:00:40 GMT -5
it wasn't chasing. It was staying in business. Possibly, but it meant changing your business model to accommodate the whims of the market. Since market whims constantly change, once you start that, it's a never ending process. It's no longer a storytelling business even as a secondary feature, as second guessing the market is the antithesis of good storytelling. It's purely a business about moving units anyway possible-which is a 180 degree shift to all the things that made the DC Renaissance of the mid 80s what it was. There it was master the craft and put out the best possible product and see what sells. After it became put out stuff that sells, period. It's staying ion business sure, I understand and even sympathize with that, but it came at a price in other areas that I as a fan and supporter of good storytelling, regret having to pay. -M But, again, DC resisted giving in to the hype for close to 3 years before it became inevitable that, if they didn't sacrifice their integrity, they were likely going to go out of business. I don't see DC as having had a choice here. They tried to stick to their guns, and they were thrown to the wolves for doing so. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 18:03:08 GMT -5
It's still first hits free, feel the rush and chase the dragon the rest of your days until there is an intervention. They are still chasing the dragon.
I'm not saying I don't understand why it happened, but I still lament that it happened.
-M
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 18:04:41 GMT -5
It's still first hits free, feel the rush and chase the dragon the rest of your days until there is an intervention. They are still chasing the dragon. I'm not saying I don't understand why it happened, but I still lament that it happened. -M Where I'm disagreeing is on who made that decision. If DC had gone out of business, the quality you lament losing still would have been lost, and a lot of good people would have been out of work too. Marvel didn't want any Norm Breyfogles. They didn't draw like Liefeld. DC had the decision made for them. |
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Post by Action Ace on Nov 16, 2014 18:10:03 GMT -5
He was the most exciting thing to happen to Superman in 50 years. I definitely disagree, there. Lois & Clark's first kiss. Then the proposal. Then the revelation. The apparent death of Lex Luthor. The Time & Again storyline where he got thrown through history. LOTS of exciting Superman stuff happened in the '90s. I was moved by the Death of Superman, but I saw Doomsday as little more than a vehicle for making it happen. If Lois & Clark hadn't got the tv green light, Superman #75 would have been the Superman/ Lois wedding. The back up plan was the frequent editorial meeting joke of "why don't we kill him?" |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 18:10:22 GMT -5
It's still first hits free, feel the rush and chase the dragon the rest of your days until there is an intervention. They are still chasing the dragon. I'm not saying I don't understand why it happened, but I still lament that it happened. -M Where I'm disagreeing is on who made that decision. If DC had gone out of business, the quality you lament losing still would have been lost, and a lot of good people would have been out of work too. Marvel didn't want any Norm Breyfogles. They didn't draw like Liefeld. DC had the decision made for them. And Breyfogle jumped ship from DC shortly after this to go do Prime for Malibu because DC wasn't doing stories and books he wanted to do anymore and wanted the creative freedom to explore the storytelling he loved...so again, the change didn't keep the Breyfogle's working at DC either.... -M |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 19:57:42 GMT -5
I definitely disagree, there. Lois & Clark's first kiss. Then the proposal. Then the revelation. The apparent death of Lex Luthor. The Time & Again storyline where he got thrown through history. LOTS of exciting Superman stuff happened in the '90s. I was moved by the Death of Superman, but I saw Doomsday as little more than a vehicle for making it happen. If Lois & Clark hadn't got the tv green light, Superman #75 would have been the Superman/ Lois wedding. The back up plan was the frequent editorial meeting joke of "why don't we kill him?" I had no idea. Thanks for this. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 19:59:04 GMT -5
Where I'm disagreeing is on who made that decision. If DC had gone out of business, the quality you lament losing still would have been lost, and a lot of good people would have been out of work too. Marvel didn't want any Norm Breyfogles. They didn't draw like Liefeld. DC had the decision made for them. And Breyfogle jumped ship from DC shortly after this to go do Prime for Malibu because DC wasn't doing stories and books he wanted to do anymore and wanted the creative freedom to explore the storytelling he loved...so again, the change didn't keep the Breyfogle's working at DC either.... -M Agreed. It was a damned if you do, but even more damned if you don't, situation. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 16, 2014 20:46:09 GMT -5
Where I'm disagreeing is on who made that decision. If DC had gone out of business, the quality you lament losing still would have been lost, and a lot of good people would have been out of work too. Marvel didn't want any Norm Breyfogles. They didn't draw like Liefeld. DC had the decision made for them. And Breyfogle jumped ship from DC shortly after this to go do Prime for Malibu because DC wasn't doing stories and books he wanted to do anymore and wanted the creative freedom to explore the storytelling he loved...so again, the change didn't keep the Breyfogle's working at DC either.... -M And then he ended up at Marvel doing fill-ins and odd'n'ends, so circle squared and all that. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 20:49:55 GMT -5
Did anyone mention PAD's original X-Factor run?
Or does that not count because it technically started in the late 80's?
I haven't read it all, but I was reminded of it because I just read Alpha Flight #107 and it was an X-Factor team-up.
And it was actually pretty decent!
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 16, 2014 20:51:42 GMT -5
Garney's art, I'm not sure of. His cap art is my son's favorite. But I've seen his X-Men art and GAH. ohsobad. Are you sure it's not because he did the art during Chuck Austen's run?  |
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 16, 2014 20:54:49 GMT -5
Garney's art, I'm not sure of. His cap art is my son's favorite. But I've seen his X-Men art and GAH. ohsobad. Are you sure it's not because he did the art during Chuck Austen's run? No, he definitely lost something. Loved his work on Cap, but then for a good decade, it was really sloppy, sub-Ron Lim kinda stuff. I think he may have lost an inker or something. His recent stuff is pretty solid, though.
(I mean post-Silver Surfer Lim, but he lost something during that run, too.)
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 16, 2014 20:55:51 GMT -5
Did anyone mention PAD's original X-Factor run? Or does that not count because it technically started in the late 80's? Peter David's run began with the September 1991 issue. I didn't like it at the time, but that's only because I loved the previous line-up and wasn't ready to accept something so radically different. Truly, I've never heard anyone offer anything but praise for David's run. |
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Post by fanboystranger on Nov 16, 2014 20:57:26 GMT -5
Did anyone mention PAD's original X-Factor run? Or does that not count because it technically started in the late 80's? Peter David's run began with the September 1991 issue. I didn't like it at the time, but that's only because I loved the previous line-up and wasn't ready to accept something so radically different. Truly, I've never heard anyone offer anything but praise for David's run. Pretty much all of David's '90s work is worth reading. I think he's gotten better in the past decade, though. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2014 20:58:37 GMT -5
Are you sure it's not because he did the art during Chuck Austen's run? No, he definitely lost something. Loved his work on Cap, but then for a good decade, it was really sloppy, sub-Ron Lim kinda stuff. I think he may have lost an inker or something. His recent stuff is pretty solid, though.
(I mean post-Silver Surfer Lim, but he lost something during that run, too.)
I liked Lim's early stuff on Surfer, but as the run progressed it got worse in my estimation, mostly becausEI think he was working fast for bi-weekly issues and multiple titles through a good chunk of it. As for Garney, coincidentally, the only thing post-Cap I liked by him was the brief run on Surfer he did with I believe J.M. DeMatteis, but I could be misremembering that. -M |
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