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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 1, 2023 14:47:59 GMT -5
I'm interested; but, am reminded of a phrase from the 80s..... and Steve? Will they get their due? Special features packages with the films have been mixed; will this be an improvement or more of the same? That's what I'm curious about. That and how much we may hear from Larry Lieber.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 7:05:24 GMT -5
There is one issue I have with this: what will the documentary tell us that we don’t already know?
Stan Lee was interviewed so many times. He wrote an autobiography. Articles have been written about him.
From our wrestling discussions, well we could probably ask, what would the point be of a documentary about the history of, say, the WWF/WWE? What would it tell us that we don’t already know?
No disrespect to Stan Lee, but I’m just not sure there’ll be any new information - or any major revelations.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 2, 2023 8:03:00 GMT -5
I hope I'm wrong but I suspect it will be a bunch of adulatory BS interspersed with clips of his various cameos, and almost certainly shortshrifting Kirby, Ditko, and his many other collaborators. I have no more interest in watching that than I would a doc that paints him as a credit-hogging charlatan.
Cei-U! I summon the hard pass!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 2, 2023 13:17:09 GMT -5
Any documentary will be aimed at the general public, who only know him as the cameo guy in the MCU films and believe that he is the sole creator of things, despite the credits (which they probably didn't really look at, much, except to wait for the post-credits teaser). Stan has an interesting life, which makes for a good story and there is a big audience who hasn't heard it. However, I also suspect it will perpetuate the idea that he thought everything up and handed it to the artists. Stan was part of the creation of the Marvel Universe; but, the reality is far more complex than years of interviews have made it. Also, I tend to think that most of the interview subjects with be actors and similar personnel from the movies and tv shows, feeding the copy written for them, without real personal insight into Stan. His wife passed away in 2017, but brother Larry is still around and Stan's daughters. I doubt the Kirby family was contacted to contribute and Ditko had no immediate family, aside from a nephew who had worked as an artist. If we are lucky, they might have interviews with some Marvel staffers, like John Romita, though I suspect it would more likely be from the current editorial side of things, rather than people who worked directly with him, like Roy Thomas. You would hope they would try, though, especially Roy, as Stan was his mentor and he worked with him on later projects involving Marvel history. I'm willing to bet you won't hear the words "Funky" and "Flashman" in it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 2, 2023 20:46:31 GMT -5
(Kirby, Ditko) Will they get their due? Special features packages with the films have been mixed; will this be an improvement or more of the same? That's what I'm curious about. That and how much we may hear from Larry Lieber. This is an exercise in promoting some of Disney's IP. Stan Lee is the name most associated with the Marvel Universe, so Stan will be the name we see on the marquee. If we were talking about artistic merit, it would be an entirely different thing. We'd have Kirbys and Ditko's names in 18-foot tall letters. But there we are... Show business is owned, first and foremost, by the people who are good at promotion. Stan does deserve his space in the spotlight, but the reason he's there and not Jack or Steve is that he was very good at self-promotion. That's not a condemnation, but a statement of fact. It's also what made the Marvel Age of comics, even if arguably the creative drive was found elsewhere. In a century, I'm sure Stan will be remembered as one heck of a promoter, and Jack and Steve as outstanding creators. All these gentlemen will deserve the praise they get.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2023 17:35:39 GMT -5
I don't think it's as much about Stan Lee getting all this extraneous credit as a creator that really attracts people to his life and a bigger than life persona at that (much as the smaller group of hardcore folks like us have the knowledge of and passion for all the undersung talent that is more representative of the bigger picture of success). People gravitate to personas in general more than a resume or list of credentials. Stan's frequent chutzpah has charmed more people than it has offended, whether we like it or not (as you said Roquefort Raider, he was very good at self-promotion). A truly objective and balanced view of the contributions of Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko is certainly both just and would make for a more "informational" documentary of the legacy of Marvel. But could someone tell it in as mesmerizing a manner as Stan could? That's a tall order. Of course I say all this, but Steve Ditko is my favorite artist (who I feel is even more obscure than Kirby to the broader population), so trust me when I say I'm with everyone here in spirit. driver1980, I do have to say I also agree with your point, the very first thing I thought was "another one"? If there's money still to be made I get it from a business sense, but man it seems like this has all been covered many times before.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jan 3, 2023 20:35:58 GMT -5
I feel like Marvel Comics: The Untold Story did a far better job of telling this particular part of comics history for those who were really and truly interested in the nuts and bolts There, I said it
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Jun 17, 2023 11:22:45 GMT -5
Watched this last night. Really well done from a filmmaking perspective. It basically takes audio and clips from old interviews, comic con appearances, TV shows, etc to tell his life story. The debate over creator credit is a significant aspect of the story, but definitely slanted towards Lee as the most important contributor. Still, it explores Ditko's and (especially) Kirby's side more than most mainstream works on Lee's life usually do. Nothing from Larry Lieber. Audio from Kirby, Simon, Flo Steinberg. Lots of clips from media I hadn't seen before, like Lee with Julie Schwartz and Carmine Infantino on a mid-70s (?) ep of the Tom Synder show that looks pretty interesting
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Jun 17, 2023 23:04:03 GMT -5
Disney has a powerful tool in Stan Lee, a beloved, grandfatherly creator of all who is too dead to say anything to contradict them or embarrass the corporate brand. For decades, this is what they did with Walt Disney until certain truths came out that made him a less than idealic icon. So yeah, I fully believe Disney will milk Stan's legacy for all it's worth.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 19, 2023 8:15:05 GMT -5
I responded to kirby101 about the documentary in the "There. I said it" thread, but I guess its okay to re-post it in this relevant thread:
Its not surprising Disney pushes one face and one message. Its the same agenda behind its attempt to sell "May the 4ht Be With You" / "Star Wars Celebrations" in a way that would lead the uninitiated to believe all Star Wars creations are seen and valued equally, or the same with the MCU. Obviously, its all corporate propaganda, and in the Lee doc's case, its the icing on the cake--selling a single story as all-encompassing fact behind a company. That said, I'm certainly not one to jump on the "Stan didn't do anything" train, because I've researched enough and heard firsthand accounts from former Marvel employees to know that kind of attack is the result of hyper-defensive fans of other creators trying to take the offensive, scorched earth position if Lee is recognized for anything significant at all.
There's a middle ground, but someone has to be willing to take it in order to create what would be a fair, accurate historical account of the foundational years of Marvel. Needless to say, that will never come from Disney.
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