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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 14:32:36 GMT -5
The Ff didn't fight crime, Thor, when the book found it's footing, didn't fight crime, Dr Strange didn't fight crime. Spidey did, but that's not what his book was about. Most comics left the crime fighting motif long ago. Since the Silver Age they became the myths of battling gods. and most of those (with the exception of Spidey) never had or long ago abandoned the concept of secret identity as part of their mythos. -M
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Post by zaku on Mar 25, 2023 18:31:06 GMT -5
The Ff didn't fight crime, Thor, when the book found it's footing, didn't fight crime, Dr Strange didn't fight crime. Spidey did, but that's not what his book was about. Most comics left the crime fighting motif long ago. Since the Silver Age they became the myths of battling gods. and most of those (with the exception of Spidey) never had or long ago abandoned the concept of secret identity as part of their mythos. -M It's interesting that in the MCU the only heroes with a bona fide secret identity are just Spider-Man and Daredevil.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 22:58:30 GMT -5
Incidentally, why the hell would I fight crime in a flamboyant costume while yelling my nom de guerre: "NOW YOU WILL FACE THE WRATH OF [insert your superhero name here]"? Why shouldn't I be discreet about the whole thing? Everyone’s mileage will vary, but I feel you have to play the game a little. I like the colourful costumes, names and the absurdity (not meant in a pejorative way) of superhero comics. It’s up to you what you like and what you choose to read, and I don’t mean to sound critical, but, with the greatest respect, if you can’t embrace that, I would respectfully wonder why you would ever even pick up a DC or Marvel superhero comic. 100% spot on.
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Post by zaku on Mar 26, 2023 4:25:25 GMT -5
Incidentally, why the hell would I fight crime in a flamboyant costume while yelling my nom de guerre: "NOW YOU WILL FACE THE WRATH OF [insert your superhero name here]"? Why shouldn't I be discreet about the whole thing? Everyone’s mileage will vary, but I feel you have to play the game a little. I like the colourful costumes, names and the absurdity (not meant in a pejorative way) of superhero comics. It’s up to you what you like and what you choose to read, and I don’t mean to sound critical, but, with the greatest respect, if you can’t embrace that, I would respectfully wonder why you would ever even pick up a DC or Marvel superhero comic. Ok, first of all let's split the two topics The OP asked: "But if you yourself gained powers in the real world and decided to go into the hero business (making the world better to the best of your judgement), would you actually attempt to keep a secret identity? And why or why not?" The key phrase is "real world". Now, when we talk about works of fiction, there is the concept of "Suspension of disbelief": the willingness of a reader to ignore critical thinking in order to enjoy a story. So we accept that in a fantasy novel magic exists, in a sci-fi movie we can defeats super-technological aliens, in a martial movie a single man can win barehanded against hundreds of armed opponents. Probably the super-hero genre require the most quantity of "suspension of disbelief" because we to accept that - Superpowers exist
- Magic exist
- Alien exist
- That a normal human can routinely win against superpowered villains
- That wearing colored tights to go beating up criminals at night is a very reasonable and normal career choice.
- That a society in which all this happens is practically the same as ours
Now, I LOVE superhero comics. And I love action movies and martial arts movie. Because I accept that they are set in their own universes, universes where John Wick can survive after literally hundreds of assassins tried to kill him. I love a good revenge story. I dig a movie where a hero accepts his/her destiny, dons a costume and battles bad guys. But I know, precisely, that they are works of fiction. All is well because the writers, the demiurges of these universes, decide that all will be well. But I obviously have a critical thinking that makes me realize that the rules that hold in these universes in real life don't make sense. If a martial artist acquaintance of mine who has had a personal misfortune decides to don colorful leotards and fight crime at night, I would try to dissuade him and seek professional help. Do I see the same story in a comic? I'm very curious to know how it will end and I'm rooting for him / her! All the "rules" of a superhero universe collapse miserably when applied to reality. There's a reason why we don't see Batman out there (I'm not talking about " Real-life superhero" who are just people who do community service with a cute costume). So what would I do if I had superpowers? I certainly wouldn't get into crimefighting because I don't have the necessary training and I pay taxes for professionals to do it. And you certainly don't solve the crime problem by flying around looking for some pickpocket or drug dealer to beat up. Maybe I would make myself available to the Protezione Civile or similar. Obviously I wouldn't have a secret identity because that would be stupid. Secret identity in the comic sense I mean ("Why don't I ever see Zaku and Super LifeSaver in the same room together???"). But maybe I wouldn't advertise myself and avoid trumpeting it around for some privacy. But I certainly wouldn't make a person who suspects the truth think she's crazy and I wouldn't do complicated subterfuges to deceive her. This is probably the best film ever that explains what would happen if one decided to be a superhero in real life (and what are the reasons that would push him to do so). I recommend it to everybody!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 5:58:33 GMT -5
Everyone’s mileage will vary, but I feel you have to play the game a little. I like the colourful costumes, names and the absurdity (not meant in a pejorative way) of superhero comics. It’s up to you what you like and what you choose to read, and I don’t mean to sound critical, but, with the greatest respect, if you can’t embrace that, I would respectfully wonder why you would ever even pick up a DC or Marvel superhero comic. Ok, first of all let's split the two topics Let's not actually, and the reason why is that folks who really don't like the idea of "real life" crimefighting have now repeated themselves MANY times in this thread. And that's fine if that's your opinion, but the repetition thing gets old. Nor is this meant to be the place to somehow opine that you don't like police or whatever societal thing bothers you today. I would politely suggest starting a new thread for those folks who really want to discuss such things. The question is oriented around if you yourself, in some fantastical scenario in the real world, had to face the dilemma of maintaining a secret identity or not, would you or wouldn't you and why. This is about how would you keep loved ones protected depending on which way you went, and I appreciate the many well thought out answers that have been provided, it's been an interesting discussion and it's refined my personal opinion on the topic along the way. I've come to the conclusion that in the real world today, I have to agree with several who have mentioned it would be virtually impossible to keep a secret identity in practice. As I look to real world practices of how families of people who face this type risk work in practice, I think I would choose no secret identity but have a security detail around my family 24/7. I think it would be the best option to keep them protected, and would also allow me to execute quickly when duty called without having to change into my hero identity.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 6:29:38 GMT -5
The security detail thing is an interesting one, I’d do that (maybe) if in a comicbook universe.
Sticking with supercat’s original remit, there’s one thing that is common between comicbook universes and the real world: HOW we speak. I’m not necessarily referring to accents and the like as one could disguise that, but the choice of words we use. Or the order we use them. Or any number of factors.
Imagine if Perry White gained super powers and adopted a secret identity. An occasional “Great Caesar’s Ghost!” from him might have his peers saying, “You don’t think Perry is that new masked hero, do you?”
What if I adopted a secret identity and hung around with members here. I could imagine one of them saying, “You know, that new masked hero seems to mention wrestling a hell of a lot, both directly and as an analogy. It sure reminds me of driver1980.”
You can probably think of similar examples that would occur in comics. I mean, okay, if you’re a superhero who says little - or, like Black Bolt, cannot speak - then you’re probably fine. But if we use Spider-Man as an example, and without sucking the fun out of the comics we love, I could imagine a scenario where someone clever - just ONE person - says, “Spidey sure seems to use a lot of the same terminology and pronunciation as Peter, doesn’t he?”
I may be speaking nonsense (as usual). But that’s just a view I wanted to offer.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 26, 2023 8:42:15 GMT -5
I always pictured Peter using a strong "Noo Yawk" accent when in costume to throw people off the scent.
Cei-U! I summon the verbal sleight-of-hand!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 8:57:15 GMT -5
The security detail thing is an interesting one, I’d do that (maybe) if in a comicbook universe. Sticking with supercat’s original remit, there’s one thing that is common between comicbook universes and the real world: HOW we speak. I’m not necessarily referring to accents and the like as one could disguise that, but the choice of words we use. Or the order we use them. Or any number of factors. Imagine if Perry White gained super powers and adopted a secret identity. An occasional “Great Caesar’s Ghost!” from him might have his peers saying, “You don’t think Perry is that new masked hero, do you?” What if I adopted a secret identity and hung around with members here. I could imagine one of them saying, “You know, that new masked hero seems to mention wrestling a hell of a lot, both directly and as an analogy. It sure reminds me of driver1980.” You can probably think of similar examples that would occur in comics. I mean, okay, if you’re a superhero who says little - or, like Black Bolt, cannot speak - then you’re probably fine. But if we use Spider-Man as an example, and without sucking the fun out of the comics we love, I could imagine a scenario where someone clever - just ONE person - says, “Spidey sure seems to use a lot of the same terminology and pronunciation as Peter, doesn’t he?” I may be speaking nonsense (as usual). But that’s just a view I wanted to offer. Great call out, I think I've always had the impression it would work like the classic Bud Collyer "drop your voice" switch from Clark to Superman, but our voices are more than just that. If someone you knew well started talking to you in a disguise, unless it was truly like Iron Man modulation or similar, I suspect after awhile it would be along the lines of what you describe. Plus even if you tried to "alter your voice" when in hero guise, in say the heat of combat would you really be able to keep that up or would your natural voice inadvertently come through at times? Granted, in a real world setting you would not expect nearly the amount of exposition as in the funny books, but still. I always pictured Peter using a strong "Noo Yawk" accent when in costume to throw people off the scent. Cei-U! I summon the verbal sleight-of-hand! He switches from his natural Queens accent to a Brooklyn one!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 9:08:50 GMT -5
I've been trying to also think about whether a secret identity approach could have worked in the real world in past, well before the technology of modern times. I think changing into your alter ego if you are say street level in a city would not work out as conveniently as it does in the comic books. There just aren't that many side alleys or ways in general to quickly duck out of a crowd.
I also had this thought last night of an apartment realtor showing someone a place for rent in the Chelsea section of Manhattan:
"So this is a really nice 2nd floor walk-up, great location, and a fun little bonus, you see that top apartment in the building right across the way? That's where Spider-Man lives. We pretend not to see him 'cause we don't want to let him down, but you can see him coming and going from the skylight all the time."
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2023 10:52:51 GMT -5
I know what you mean about the heat of the moment, @jaska.
I read a UK comic story once where a Russian agent had infiltrated British intelligence. At one point, another character accidentally called the spy by his Russian name, which immediately gave the game away. So, on that score, it’s possible that in the heat of the moment, Robin could call Batman by his real name - in front of any number of people. It’d be really tiring to keep up the act 24/7.
Where secret identities do work is when the real identity is the exact opposite you’d expect the hero to be. Who’d expect a blind lawyer to be Daredevil? Who’d expect a high school student, with a lot of bad luck, to be Spider-Man? Who’d expect a millionaire CEO to be Batman?
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2023 12:13:09 GMT -5
The voice thing assumes the individual would be known to a wide variety of people. Most would have no need to do something like that, as they would be relatively anonymous. Pre-digital revolution, you could get away with it, because audio analysis was a relatively young science. You could use an oscilloscope or similar device to map a voiceprint; but, you'd need something to compare. Modern technology makes identification easier; but, again, you still need to have recordings of the voices, for analysis. A computer might identify two voices as the same, but if neither of them is known, you still have to ID the voice and, if one was originally misidentified, you would also misidentify the masked vigilante's voice. Costuming would be a harder thing to pull off, because how many people have those kinds of sewing skills? It's a big difference between sewing on a button and stitching up a rip and actually sewing a shirt. Where do you get the pattern? McCall's Patterns for Vigilantes? Even the whole costume shop thing means they have to have a ready-made item for you to buy or adapt. Now, maybe you could get your stuff from a maker of pro wrestling ring gear; but, that was a specialized field and would be traceable. The Kick-Ass conceit of it being a wet suit didn't work for me, because it wouldn't "breathe" and you'd get pretty damn hot in such a thing. Now, with the 80s fitness boom, you have all kinds of spandex clothing; but, the material is thin and offers little protection, if you aren't invulnerable. Wrestling tights were actually thicker material. While we are at it, where the heck to do find buccaneer boots, let alone colorful pairs? There weren't that many custom manufacturers, before things like the Society for Creative Anachronism or Renaissance Fairs, or pirate gatherings, cos-play, etc. You would need something protective and concealing. It also needs to functional. Masks limit peripheral vision. Pro wrestling masks have big eyeholes, bigger than things like the tv Lone Ranger mask or your average eye mask. The extra features in the original Watchmen series covers this, with the excerpt from Hollis Mason's memoir, where he talks about putting together his costume. He ends up with a combination of leather and chain mail, for protection. He tried a traditional eye mask, but a crook got a finger in the eyehole and pulled it out of place. He switched to attaching it to his face with spirit gum (which will weaken, over time and as you sweat). The Comedian switched from his original costume to his leather gear, after nearly getting knifed. What he ends up with looks quite a bit like the main character in the William Klein satirical film, Mister Freedom.... That gets tweaked, later, with an old school flight helmet and padded chest protector added.... The character (a Right Wing bigot sheriff), has no powers and carries a .45 automatic. As you can see, he has shoulder pads (look more like hockey shoulder pads than football, even for the 60s), cricket shin and knee guards, heavy clothing and either a catcher's mask (at the start) or flight helmet (later on). Repurposed athletic gear makes the most sense, as it is designed for movement and protection. However, you would have to gear up, as you couldn't just hide that under an overcoat or some such. As far as the modern world, you'd need to be masked, you'd need to wear gloves and you'd need to minimize sources of potential DNA evidence. Fingerprints aren't necessarily going to trace you, because your prints have to be on file, in a law enforcement database. Mine are, because of the military; but, if I had never been finger printed, for the Navy, my prints wouldn't be on file anywhere. I have never used a thumbprint id mechanism. I do not have face recognition smart devices. The only public recordings of my voice are one radio interview and a couple of podcasts. That would take a lot of research. Hollywood really inflates how much forensic evidence is a major factor in court. It helps; but, often there isn't enough to seal up a case. Now, if you have caused a stir and a law enforcement or media organization is determined to identify you, they eventually will; but, it may take a long time. The Unabomber took quite a while. How quickly you could be tracked down depends heavily on how great the volume of public record exists related to you and how careful you are in your actions. Someone like a Bruce Wayne would likely be uncovered relatively quickly because of capital needed for just the Batmobile, public appearances as Bruce Wayne, the very public record about his parents' murder, his size, his personal movements vs Batman's activity, etc. Peter Parker would have school records, but not a lot else, depending on how quiet he stays on social media and the like. Moon Knight is probably the closest hero concept that would be hard to track down, because he operates much like an intelligence operative, with false identities, safe houses, and lots of ready cash. For deep cover spying, they create a "legend," a false identity, complete with all of the official paperwork (licenses, tax records, passports, etc). You might trace one identity and find that it is false, but there may be no link to an alternate identity. Bruce Wayne could do a lot to cover his tracks, with his resources; but, the more people involved, the harder to keep the secret. For instance, he could use an actor to establish an alibi of being out of the country, while operating on a long case, as Batman; but, you would need cut-outs to pay the actor, secretly. the fact that he is impersonating Wayne points a finger at Bruce and his company. There are ways to subtly alter your appearance, to make identification harder, beyond masking; but, they would also likely inhibit your movements. Things like lifts, to increase height, or padding, to alter shape, etc.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2023 12:34:23 GMT -5
ps If you want to see how you could create a false identity, pre-computer databases, check out either the novel or the film version of Day of the Jackal. Frederick Forsyth had done a lot of research and had a lot of experience with actual mercenary soldiers. The Jackal creates a false passport for research names in a graveyard and then obtaining the birth record for someone of the righ age, who died in childhood. He then uses that to apply for a passport. He also has a passport forged, by a criminal, who he then kills, to cover his tracks. In the 1960s, when the book was written, birth and death records weren't cross-referenced, for the purposes of obtaining a passport. Because of situations where government agencies had issued proper credentials, based on birth certificates for dead people, they had to start cross-referencing them. Computer databases made this far easier. However, even when databases were a thing, you still had pockets where records hadn't been digitized. That took years, even decades.
Even with modern digital records and databases, it is still possible to create false identities, if you know how the system works and can forge or obtain the right base documents to establish the identity. Just look at the Real ID filing requirements. One of the requirements is utility records, to establish residency. Those are pretty easy to fake. So are things like leases. Where it gets harder is with Social security numbers and things like that. It's still not impossible; but it is harder, especially with cross-referenced databases. If you use a stolen identity of a dead person, you might get past an initial search, but you still have to get past the cross-reference checks.
I can tell you from experience, it takes time before death records get promulgated. My wife passed away on November 30 and I am still receiving correspondence from agencies that should have received notification. They probably have a backlog in registering all of the documentation.
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Post by Calidore on Mar 26, 2023 12:47:04 GMT -5
I've been trying to also think about whether a secret identity approach could have worked in the real world in past, well before the technology of modern times. I think changing into your alter ego if you are say street level in a city would not work out as conveniently as it does in the comic books. There just aren't that many side alleys or ways in general to quickly duck out of a crowd. I also had this thought last night of an apartment realtor showing someone a place for rent in the Chelsea section of Manhattan: "So this is a really nice 2nd floor walk-up, great location, and a fun little bonus, you see that top apartment in the building right across the way? That's where Spider-Man lives. We pretend not to see him 'cause we don't want to let him down, but you can see him coming and going from the skylight all the time."
To be honest, if I'm a real estate agent, the last thing I'd want to tell a client is that a superhero lives nearby. They say most supervillain attacks happen within a mile of home, you know.
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Post by Calidore on Mar 26, 2023 12:50:10 GMT -5
I always pictured Peter using a strong "Noo Yawk" accent when in costume to throw people off the scent. Cei-U! I summon the verbal sleight-of-hand!
While Tom Holland is playing him, Spider-Man should use his natural British accent when in costume to really mess with people.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 26, 2023 14:19:29 GMT -5
I always pictured Peter using a strong "Noo Yawk" accent when in costume to throw people off the scent. Cei-U! I summon the verbal sleight-of-hand!
While Tom Holland is playing him, Spider-Man should use his natural British accent when in costume to really mess with people. Then they would identify Dick Van Dyke as the hero.
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