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Post by Deleted on Mar 23, 2023 8:34:23 GMT -5
Fan or not? Any particular views? I must admit, I can be drawn to quirky stories in comics. I like something different. The Outsider was before my time, but I read reprints a good 20+ years after his appearances. I’m not sure what the motivation was in turning Alfred into The Outsider (that’d be interesting to know), but I did quite like the gimmick. It’s probably of its time, and I’m not sure I’d want to see it return (please tell me it hasn’t), but I like his look, powers, who he was, etc. Were you for or against him? Or perhaps indifferent?
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 23, 2023 8:47:29 GMT -5
I loathe stories where someone from a character's supporting cast gains powers and/or turns evil so, no, a big "thumbs down" to The Outsider. It was a stupid solution to a pair of stupid editorial decisions (to kill off Alfred in the first place, then to resurrect him because of the TV series).
Cei-U! A pox on it, sayeth I!
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Post by MDG on Mar 23, 2023 9:32:33 GMT -5
IIRC and Cei-U! can correct me on this, I don;t think the Outsider was originally conceived as Alfred, but he was "available" when they needed a way to bring Alfred back. Julie Schwartz said that the name came from the Lovecraft story, but it really didn;t fit with the rest of the New Look. (Schwartz also retconned a witch that shows up in an Outsider story as Zatanna in a different form during her introduction across his various books.) While not a fan, I think he looks neat.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 23, 2023 12:25:41 GMT -5
I read a few of those (Batman Family and a Batman 100 PG issue) and never found them to be particularly memorable. As best I recall, he was always in the shadows, in those stories (the ones I saw), which was a bit more effective than looking like Ben Grimm's albino cousin.
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 23, 2023 12:28:12 GMT -5
The Outsider is so so stupid
BUT SO SO AWESOME!!
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Post by chadwilliam on Mar 23, 2023 22:01:18 GMT -5
The Adam West series used to get a bad rap (perhaps still does) for supposedly pulling the rug out from Julius Schwartz when he took over the main titles. Schwartz and company were in the process of fixing all of the Old Look mistakes - Bat-Mite, aliens, Bat-Hound, etc. - by offering us more grounded, moodier, serious, and perhaps even sophisticated stories (which Schwartz outright claimed would be the goal of The New Look when he took over in 1964) when in came Adam West Bat-using his way all over those arrangements. Or so we've all heard. This is complete and utter nonsense spread either by wishful idealism about how great the New Look era was or out of sheer contempt for the television series. Why do I mention this here? Because The Outsider serves as the best support I can offer to my statement. Although I like his first appearance very much - that of an ominous voice delivering a recorded voice over the Batmobile's Batphone in which he promises to rob Batman of his prized possessions one by one until his his life is taken from him - things only went downhill from there. Just one story after another where Batman either has to climb hand over fist to outrace the Batmobile which is chasing him up a wall or has to contend with his costume chasing him around his Bat-Cave or even gluing itself to his face so he can't remove his mask when he needs to - just ridiculous stuff. I mean, a mysterious voice at midnight threatening your life is one thing when delivered over the telephone, but when Batman's socks start talking to him while flying around the Bat-Cave, well... As Cei-U mentioned - a stupid character, but at least a convenient means of bringing Alfred back to life after a two year absence. As for whether or not anyone at DC intended for The Outsider to be Alfred right from the start, Michael Eury's Batcave Companion has this to offer: "According to the recollections of Gardner Fox, initially he and co-conspirator Julius Schwartz were also baffled by The Outsider. As Fox revealed in a 1976 interview by Rich Morrissey, published posthumously in the fanzine Amazing Heroes #113 (Mar. 15, 1987), the writer said, 'It's my belief when we created The Outsider series, neither Julie nor I had any idea who The Outsider would turn out to be". It is correctly guessed by reader, Henry Goldman in Detective Comics #349 (incidentally, that same issue where The Outsider pulls his 'every time Batman takes his mask off it flies across the room and reapplies itself to his face' stunt) before the big reveal in Detective Comics #356 which makes me wonder if that's where Schwartz got the idea from (the editor's response to Goldman's missive reads 'This is the best Outsider-identity guess yet! Incidentally, despite Alfred's 'demise' in Detective Comics #328, he will appear in the Batman-TV series, slated to start in January'. Regardless of whether or not the Bat-team knew who The Outsider was, it was pretty clear that he was invented without any end-game in sight. The fact that his appearances were so sporadic also suggests that he was also created with no motivation in mind other than to escape the inertia which seemed to prevail during that New Look period.
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Post by MDG on Mar 24, 2023 10:27:51 GMT -5
I believe all of the Outsider's story appearances (not covers) were drawn by "Bob Kane," and Infantino stayed with more grounded (certainly a relative term here) stories, almost as if they were two different characters. And I think that all of the Outsider stories were written by Gardner Fox, who seemed to like stories about "magic"--John Broome seemed to stay more with science-based plots.
(This is off the top of my head--it may not be accurate)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2023 13:16:20 GMT -5
Random thought: given the hassle the Outsider caused Batman, why would Batman want to lead a team called The Outsiders?
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 24, 2023 14:06:29 GMT -5
I believe all of the Outsider's story appearances (not covers) were drawn by "Bob Kane," and Infantino stayed with more grounded (certainly a relative term here) stories, almost as if they were two different characters. And I think that all of the Outsider stories were written by Gardner Fox, who seemed to like stories about "magic"--John Broome seemed to stay more with science-based plots. (This is off the top of my head--it may not be accurate) You're right about Fox and mostly right about Moldoff-as-Kane, but Infantino did draw Detective #429, which spotlighted Blockbuster with the Outsider acting mostly behind the scenes.
Cei-U! I summon the exception to the rule!
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Post by badwolf on Mar 24, 2023 16:19:17 GMT -5
Random thought: given the hassle the Outsider caused Batman, why would Batman want to lead a team called The Outsiders? He was taking back the name!
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 25, 2023 11:26:38 GMT -5
Random thought: given the hassle the Outsider caused Batman, why would Batman want to lead a team called The Outsiders? He was taking back the name! And he was a big fan of S.E. Hinton!
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Post by Hoosier X on Mar 25, 2023 12:47:03 GMT -5
Somewhere along the way, I somehow came to terms with the Outsider.
I think I first encountered him in the Batman Encyclopedia, which I got for Christmas somewhere in the late 1970s when I was a teenager. It sounded terrible.
I think I encountered an actual Outsider story when I bought a back issue (only a few years old at that time) of Detective Comics, one of those 100-Page Super-Spectaculars. As I recall, they were re-printing the whole Outsider saga in Detective Comics. I still wasn’t impressed. Ugh! I think it was the Witch story. (Which I still think is pretty bad even though I’ve softened in my attitude towards the Outsider in general.)
Twelve or 13 years ago, I started focusing on Detective Comics, and little by little, as I gathered more and more issues of the New Look, I read all the Outsider stories. I think it was the Grasshopper Gang that changed my mind. Those guys are hilarious! Somehow, it was easier to accept the rampant absurdity of the entire saga, just because the Grasshopper Gang brought a smile to my face.
It’s still pretty bad. It just doesn’t matter that it’s bad.
And I still think that Detective Comics #364 (the one where Alfred has a relapse and becomes the Outsider again for one issue) is a great candidate for worst issue of Detective Comics ever!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2023 13:03:23 GMT -5
You’re all familiar with The Outsiders from WCW, right? Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, yes?
I think DC should publish a multiverse tale where Alfred once again becomes The Outsider - and joins The Outsiders in WCW, being the third man rather than Hulk Hogan. It could end with a punch-up between the Dynamic Duo and the nWo.
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Post by Cei-U! on Mar 25, 2023 14:29:55 GMT -5
You’re all familiar with The Outsiders from WCW, right? Scott Hall and Kevin Nash, yes? I think DC should publish a multiverse tale where Alfred once again becomes The Outsider - and joins The Outsiders in WCW, being the third man rather than Hulk Hogan. It could end with a punch-up between the Dynamic Duo and the nWo. If we all had to take a shot every time driver mentions wrestling, we'd all be blotto 24/7.
Cei-U! I summon the site-wide liver damage!
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Post by Chris on Mar 25, 2023 14:33:49 GMT -5
"Occupation: Attempted murderer" I don't know which is better. The fact that "murderer" is a legitimate career option in the DC universe. Or that one can have a career as "attempted." Imagine your bridges collapsing and your buildings falling apart, but you still have a career as a respected Attempted Engineer. Oh, sure, he keeps crashing or getting lost, but I tell ya, man, that 1980 guy is one hell of an attempted taxi driver.
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