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Post by foxley on May 9, 2024 3:31:06 GMT -5
Ace is a commissioned officer; an Air Force captain O-3 according to his original file card, and a major O-4 on his later ones (I guess he got promoted).
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Post by foxley on May 9, 2024 3:44:59 GMT -5
Given I seem to be using this thread as a chance to discuss all things military... (Although we are still many issues away from the introduction of the G.I. Joe astronaut Payload) Today I attended a keynote address by General B. Chance Saltzman, the chief of the US Space Force. He was an excellent speaker and had a good sense of humour (although he did keep mispronouncing Sir John Monash's surname as 'mon-ARSH' rather than 'mon-ASH'). However, his uniform attracted some comment from the audience, and General Saltzman himself made some jokes about it. So, given codystarbuck's comments about the US Navy's 'choker whites', I wondered what his opinion is on the Space Force's dress uniform:
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Post by commond on May 9, 2024 4:00:40 GMT -5
I don't know if Cody will make it that far, but Hama goes on a killing spree later in the series.
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Post by Calidore on May 9, 2024 4:32:20 GMT -5
(although he did keep mispronouncing Sir John Monash's surname as 'mon-ARSH' rather than 'mon-ASH'). When I visit a friend who lives in the St. Louis area, some of the people there say "warsh" for "wash", for example. Is he from around there by any chance?
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Post by foxley on May 9, 2024 5:12:12 GMT -5
(although he did keep mispronouncing Sir John Monash's surname as 'mon-ARSH' rather than 'mon-ASH'). When I visit a friend who lives in the St. Louis area, some of the people there say "warsh" for "wash", for example. Is he from around there by any chance? According to Wikipedia, he grew up in Bowling Green, Kentucky.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 11:35:05 GMT -5
When I visit a friend who lives in the St. Louis area, some of the people there say "warsh" for "wash", for example. Is he from around there by any chance? According to Wikipedia, he grew up in Bowling Green, Kentucky. It's a Midwestern thing and Kentucky is close enough to qualify.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 12:22:01 GMT -5
Given I seem to be using this thread as a chance to discuss all things military... (Although we are still many issues away from the introduction of the G.I. Joe astronaut Payload) Today I attended a keynote address by General B. Chance Saltzman, the chief of the US Space Force. He was an excellent speaker and had a good sense of humour (although he did keep mispronouncing Sir John Monash's surname as 'mon-ARSH' rather than 'mon-ASH'). However, his uniform attracted some comment from the audience, and General Saltzman himself made some jokes about it. So, given codystarbuck 's comments about the US Navy's 'choker whites', I wondered what his opinion is on the Space Force's dress uniform: Don't get me started on Space Force. I can't even say the name without snorting in derision. Finally, the Air Force has someone they can look down on. Seriously, I hate the uniform. It looks like something cooked up by a low rent Hollywood costume designer, for a direct-to-video sci-fi movie. I saw some of the prototypes, in news articles and they were trying for something like the revived Battlestar Galactica. I suspect you have to get a lot of tailoring done to get the jacket to fit right, because there is no way that the average servicemember is picking one off the rack in the uniform shop and it fits perfectly, especially with that diagonal flap. I can't see clearly enough to discern if there are actually button holes, or if the buttons are false and they use velcro, underneath. Our Service Dress Blues jacket had false buttons on the left hand side, which were there soly to maintain the double breasted look. They had little clips on the back, to lock them into the holes, so they could be removed for cleaning. The right side buttons were functional. On the Service Dress ("Choker") White, the pocket buttons were false, as the pockets weren't really functional. There was also a slit in the side to allow the sword belt to be fed through it (the hanger part). The uniform I was issued in ROTC had the old hook-and-eyelet fasteners for the collar, which was a real trick to fasten. You had to hook the top one first, then move your way down to the bottom one (there were three fasteners); otherwise, if you started from the bottom up, you probably would pop open one you just finished, if you swallowed. Just before commissioning, we were given our officer's uniform allowance and took a trip up to Great Lakes Naval Station, to the uniform shop, to buy our additional uniforms. We all bought new choker whites, with a velcro collar fastener. Much more comfortable. There was also a Mess Dress Uniform...a sort of military tuxedo....which you weren't expected to own until you reached the rank of LCDR (O-4). You also were not required to own a sword until then. They were expensive and you didn't start making better pay until O-4. Of course, you likely had a family, at that point, too. One thing that Hollywood never shows is that many of the privileges that came with an officer rank also came with a price tag. Naval officers had to pay for their own food, on board ship, via the Wardroom Mess. You had a monthly mess bill to pay for the food you ate. One of the officers was elected Mess Treasurer for a period of time (usually the one who was on watch when they voted) and he had to keep the books and collected the bills and pay the expenses. Now, we could eat as well as we wanted, providing we ponied up the dough. However, as my Food Service instructor said at Supply Corps School, officers are cheap and they will not pay much for dinner, which is why we ate hamburger and they bitched about not eating steak. I'd reply with what the cost of their mess bill would be, if we did that and they would say nevermind and I would tell them to stop whining and eat their hamburger. Luckily, because I had possession of other money (the ship's payroll and banking funds), I couldn't be the Mess Treasurer. Instead, I got to constantly teach college graduates how to do basic bookkeeping. These guys had engineering degrees, from major universities, but couldn't figure out Accounts Receivable, Accounts Payable, Payments and Receipts. It's simple, there is the money you owe for "stuff,", the money owed to you, the money you have paid, the money you have collected. You'd thought I was trying to teach differential equations to 7 year-olds. Officers also pay for their uniforms, but we only received an initial commissioning allowance, to buy the basic set. After that, it came out of your own pocket. We also had to pay rent or mortgage payments on our homes, if we weren't quartered in base housing (usually only married officers and there was a waiting list). Now, we did receive allowances, tax free, to cover food and rent. So, there was no reason for the officers to be cheap about their mess bills; but try explaining the difference between Pay, which was taxable, and an Allowance, which was not. Allowances were to cover basic necessities, like food and shelter; pay was your compensation for doing your job, like every other professional, in the civilian world (just at a much lower rate for comparable work). Like I said, officers are cheap. They are also stupid. When I was serving, the annual pay for an Ensign (O-1) was about $19,000 dollars, while the average starting salary for a junior manager was around $23-25,000. (1988). You had guys (and women) driving expensive sports cars, making expensive car payments, on that. I was on temporary duty, on a Destroyer Tender, which had a co-ed crew. The Communications Officer was newly commissioned and was driving a Mazda Miata, which had a sticker price around $20,000, in 1991. For comparison, my 1988 Mazda 323 SE cost about $8,000 and a 626 was about $9-10K, back before prices shot up because Mazda had a rep for reliability (same as happened with Volkswagen, where they were affordable, reliable cars that lasted and then they became luxury cars). She was always in arrears on her mess bill, because so much of her pay was going towards a car payment. She continued displaying sound judgement by carrying on an affair, with her chief petty officer, which her division knew about and one of them made a crack about it and she slapped him. Last I saw her (I had left the ship before this went down and was back working at the Destroyer Squadron HQ), she was awaiting disciplinary action for striking a subordinate. I left before the case went to court martial, so I never heard the outcome; but, I assume she was kicked out. I screwed up during my first 6 months on the job and was fired from my job, but I finished out my 4 years, learning from my mistakes and ended with praise for my work. I screwed up my books because I wasn't mature enough and focused enough to do my job and lead properly, at that point. It woke me up and I learned how to get things done, to the point I was a valuable team member, by the end. My mistake was forgivable (and the Squadron confidentially told me the ship's captain didn't handle my problem correctly, as they were supposed to be training and developing me, but he just dumped me, when I made a mistake); her's was not. You can't maintain "good order and discipline" if the person in charge is sleeping with their number 2 and then assaults someone when they call them out on it. That is someone who is going to be made an example. Getting back to Space Force; there was no reason to spin Space Command off from the Air Force. You could argue the original split of the Army and Air Force, post-war, but this isn't the same thing. The Air Force had gained a strategic role, with the Atomic Bomb and the thinking at the time was that they would be the main deterrent and they were already kind of operating independently of the ground forces, except fighter bombers. There was a logic to it. However, the Air Force has been handling space-related missions since the start of them, so why create a new service for the same thing? It lacks a similar logic and smacks of something done more for recruiting reasons than operational reasons.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 12:25:33 GMT -5
ps the open collar would be welcome, except the shirt collar and tie underneath looks terrible. I prefer something like Babylon 5, where their uniform shirt, underneath the jacket, had a high buttoned collar and no tie. It presented a better look. or something like the Star Trek movies, with the tunic under the jacket. I loved those uniforms when I first saw stills from Wrath of Khan, in Starlog (pre-release). It was the first time that Star Trek had military-style uniforms, instead of pajamas-in-space.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 12:28:54 GMT -5
pps Wait, that's a general and he only has one sleeve braid? Damn Air Force/Space Force guys can't do anything right! Notice that the services that are over 200 years old cover their uniforms in braids and hashmarks, for rank and time in service. That's what tradition brings you.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 12:32:08 GMT -5
I don't know if Cody will make it that far, but Hama goes on a killing spree later in the series. Can't start soon enough with some of these chuckleheads. I'm guessing that Lady J is fragged by Scarlett, just for being a beyotch. Tripwire probably takes out a whole platoon, with an accident.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 12:33:17 GMT -5
I can't wait until the introduce a new EOD character, codename Shaky.
(Explosive Ordinance Disposal)
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Post by driver1980 on May 9, 2024 12:34:49 GMT -5
codystarbuck wrote this: Agreed 100%. It feels like the creation of Space Force was about political ego and politicians putting themselves on the map. This is not unique to the US, but I read a magazine article once about how different branches of the military compete for funding, and if one branch has this or that piece of equipment, others want the same. I was surprised to read that the Marine Corps (and our Royal Marines) had helicopters, I just thought that’d be more the province of the RAF, Royal Navy helicopters, and the Army Air Corps. One person wrote how the RAF Regiment could be abolished, with others performing those roles. I don’t really know enough to have a view, but some seem to think their role could be done by a British Army regiment. There’s even been discussion about policing here in the UK. We have a force called the Ministry of Defence Police, who police and protect Ministry of Defence property and personnel. One letter writer (Sunday newspaper) stated that they should be abolished, with their duties covered by existing military police and civilian forces. Sometimes things seem sensible, though. The Special Investigation Branch (SIB) was the name given to the detective branches of all three UK military police arms: the Royal Military Police, Royal Air Force Police, and Royal Navy Police. A report by the government mentioned overlap of function, duplication, etc. So all three detective branches were amalgamated into what is now the Defence Serious Crime Unit, which now covers all military branches. That would seem sensible. These aren’t things I can talk about with much knowledge or authority, but more than once, the issue of redundancy and duplication has been raised.
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Post by codystarbuck on May 9, 2024 13:04:18 GMT -5
codystarbuck wrote this: Agreed 100%. It feels like the creation of Space Force was about political ego and politicians putting themselves on the map. This is not unique to the US, but I read a magazine article once about how different branches of the military compete for funding, and if one branch has this or that piece of equipment, others want the same. I was surprised to read that the Marine Corps (and our Royal Marines) had helicopters, I just thought that’d be more the province of the RAF, Royal Navy helicopters, and the Army Air Corps. One person wrote how the RAF Regiment could be abolished, with others performing those roles. I don’t really know enough to have a view, but some seem to think their role could be done by a British Army regiment. There’s even been discussion about policing here in the UK. We have a force called the Ministry of Defence Police, who police and protect Ministry of Defence property and personnel. One letter writer (Sunday newspaper) stated that they should be abolished, with their duties covered by existing military police and civilian forces. Sometimes things seem sensible, though. The Special Investigation Branch (SIB) was the name given to the detective branches of all three UK military police arms: the Royal Military Police, Royal Air Force Police, and Royal Navy Police. A report by the government mentioned overlap of function, duplication, etc. So all three detective branches were amalgamated into what is now the Defence Serious Crime Unit, which now covers all military branches. That would seem sensible. These aren’t things I can talk about with much knowledge or authority, but more than once, the issue of redundancy and duplication has been raised. Sometimes, though,, there is a reason why a specialized police force is preferable to an overlapping one, such as the case where a certain expertise is necessary. Granted, you can recruit and train that; but, it isn't quite the same. I can see a reason for a separate MOD police, given probable security considerations for classified materials, vs a standard military installation, with service police. Regular police are only going to carry a certain level of security clearance, based on the general needs of their job. For instance, as a midshipman, I carried a SECRET clearance, meaning I could see materials Classified as SECRET or below, for training purposes. In reality, pretty much everything we saw was unclassified and show to civilians, on tours. It was really only on our summer training cruises where we might see classified materials, like radio traffic. As a disbursing officer, I had the lowest clearance of any of the officers, since my job didn't require access to classified documents The Classified Material Officer had higher, since they safeguarded classified documents The thing is how the organization evolves and if it grows beyond the original purpose. It's like the Army and the original Army Air Corps. Airplanes were used first for reconnaissance and artillery spotting. It was only when enemy aircraft and pilots started shooting at observers that we developed fighters and then also bombers, to attack ground targets.. They acted in support of Army operations. That continued into WW2, as the US Army Air Force, but as strategic bombing grew as a mission, the Air wing was taking on bigger and bigger roles and needed more and more support and it made sense to spin them off as a separate service, with a structure to support their missions. I also think the influence of the RAF was there, since it was a separate service, at that time. The Navy also developed an aviation wing; but, given that it had to develop ships to transport aircraft to its assigned areas, there was no impetus to spin them off, since they could operate in areas far away from established air bases.
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Post by foxley on May 9, 2024 13:09:18 GMT -5
pps Wait, that's a general and he only has one sleeve braid? Damn Air Force/Space Force guys can't do anything right! Notice that the services that are over 200 years old cover their uniforms in braids and hashmarks, for rank and time in service. That's what tradition brings you. No, that's not the general. That's just a picture of the uniform I found online. I posted it because it was a full body shot.
This is General Saltzman:
From Saltzman's comments, I gathered he was not a fan of the uniform either, even if he couldn't just come out and say it.
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Post by foxley on May 9, 2024 13:18:31 GMT -5
According to Wikipedia, he grew up in Bowling Green, Kentucky. It's a Midwestern thing and Kentucky is close enough to qualify. Good to know. It was just particularly jarring to me because I went to Monash University, which is named after John Monash; Australia's greatest WWI commander. And, as I learned in Saltzman's speech, the first non-American to command American troops in an overseas conflict; at the Battle of Hamel on 4 July 1918. Apparently Monash chose the 4th of July deliberately to inspire the Americans.
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