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Post by zaku on Oct 20, 2023 2:00:34 GMT -5
Hitler boards a Heinkel He-177 (according to Roy, as per Frank Robbins' information) and they take off, but Hitler is unaware that Dyna-Mite has hitched a ride, on Cap's shield, though Hitler pounding on it is giving him a splitting headache....  Uh, but could he really do that? Isn't Cap's shield supposed to absorb every vibration? (I don't remember if this was a detail already established at the time). |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 20, 2023 10:27:52 GMT -5
Hitler boards a Heinkel He-177 (according to Roy, as per Frank Robbins' information) and they take off, but Hitler is unaware that Dyna-Mite has hitched a ride, on Cap's shield, though Hitler pounding on it is giving him a splitting headache.... Uh, but could he really do that? Isn't Cap's shield supposed to absorb every vibration? (I don't remember if this was a detail already established at the time). No, that came later. In the 60s, it was damaged and destroyed, more than once, suggesting he had several shields, over time. In the 70s, as best I can recall, he had the one, but they didn't try to address its properties until at least the late 70s or 80s. I'm not certain if they were even stating it was composed of adamantium, at this stage or the later adamantium/vibranium mix. I never saw anything about that until OHOTMU, in 1983, but don't recall such a thing in any of the Captain America comics I had before that, though I certainly didn't have anywhere near every issue. It's been a long time since I read it; but, I can't recall if they said Wolverine's claws were adamantium, in The Hulk, or if that came later in X-Men? I know X-Men was the first to show them to be retractable, as they looked to be part of his gauntlets, in the Hulk story and Dave Cockrum added the openings on the gloves, when he redesigned the costume, for GS X-Men #1. It's funny how many elements that people think are part of the foundation of a character were actually late editions. Take, for instance, Cap's physical abilities. Originally, the SSF gave him muscle and built his speed and agility and strength to Olympic athlete levels; but, the rest was just Cap utilizing them strategically. Later writers started adding things; and artists started drawing him more bulky. Kirby, prior to the more abstract style he developed, always drew him with more of a gymnast's physique, rather than a bodybuilder or weightlifter. Later artists bulked him up more, especially in the 80s, with the prevalence of athletes using steroids (particularly in football and pro wrestling & bodybuilding). Suddenly, Cap has a massive chest and legs and looks like Lou Ferrigno, when he used to be sleeker, but muscular, more like Burt Lancaster, in his swashbuckling films (where he recreated some of his circus act). Same with Cyclops. In the 60s and into the 70s, he had a slim build. Dave Cockrum drew him with a physique more like Cap and suddenly he is a muscular guy.. Paul Smith toned him down, a bit (and Jackson Guice) , but not to where he originally was. Then Jim Lee has him even bulkier. By Ultimates, Cap is jumping out of airplanes, without a parachute and going toe-to-toe with the Hulk. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 20, 2023 17:59:27 GMT -5
Len Wein established Wolverine had adamantium claws in Incredible Hulk #181. I think Wein intended Wolvie to be a teenager.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 20, 2023 20:35:23 GMT -5
Len Wein established Wolverine had adamantium claws in Incredible Hulk #181. I think Wein intended Wolvie to be a teenager. Like I said, I haven't read it in a long time. To be honest, it's probably been at least 20 years since I read any of the early revived X-Men issues. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 23, 2023 11:12:47 GMT -5
Len Wein established Wolverine had adamantium claws in Incredible Hulk #181. I think Wein intended Wolvie to be a teenager. I think so too, but I believe the claws were also intended to be part of his gloves originally. I think there was an abandoned origin from Wein or Claremont where he was going to be a mutated wolverine, possibly with ties to the High Evolutionary. |
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 23, 2023 12:09:26 GMT -5
Len Wein established Wolverine had adamantium claws in Incredible Hulk #181. I think Wein intended Wolvie to be a teenager. I think so too, but I believe the claws were also intended to be part of his gloves originally. One of the early issues of the New X-Men showed Wolverine using his claws when not in costume. People wrote in to point out this mistake, and the response on the letters page was something like, "Whoever said Wolverine wore claws?" To me, that was the moment that made Wolverine a really interesting character. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Oct 23, 2023 14:07:20 GMT -5
I think there was an abandoned origin from Wein or Claremont where he was going to be a mutated wolverine, possibly with ties to the High Evolutionary. Claremont hinted at this in X-Men #98 when Steven Lang said Wolverine wasn't human.  Wein said this was never his intention. linkAccording to Btian Cronin, Dave Cockrum said Stan Lee nixed the idea. link |
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Post by mikelmidnight on Oct 24, 2023 11:40:29 GMT -5
I'm making two different claims here!
I heard that WEIN intended the character to be a teenager with claws attached to his gloves.
I heard that CLAREMONT (or COCKRUM) floated the idea of his being an uplifted wolverine.
Just clarifying! This was all rumor-mongering anyway.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 24, 2023 14:44:27 GMT -5
I'm making two different claims here! I heard that WEIN intended the character to be a teenager with claws attached to his gloves. I heard that CLAREMONT (or COCKRUM) floated the idea of his being an uplifted wolverine. Just clarifying! This was all rumor-mongering anyway. I'm fairly certain I saw something at Marvel that said Wolvie was supposed to be a mutated Wolverine at the beginning; but I don't recall it being stated that Wein came up with it. I mean in the preface to a reprint or something like that. This would have been after Wein returned to DC and much later in Claremont's tenure on X-Men (post Dark Phoenix, at least). Late enough that whoever wrote the thing had gotten it mixed up. I might be misremembering, though and it was actually in a fanzine piece. It was long enough ago that it could be a blended memory. Regardless, he wasn't in WW2, in these days (that we knew of); so, back to those that were. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 24, 2023 16:13:19 GMT -5
Fantastic Four Annual #11, Marvel Two-In-One Annual #1, Marvel Two-In-One #20   The FF & The Invaders and Ben Grimm & the Liberty Legion. No one wanted to hang out with The Thunderer or the Black Marvel. Creative Teams: Roy Thomas-writer/editor, John & Sal Buscema and Sam Grainger-art, Joe Rosen, , Irv Watanabe, John Costanza and Gaspar Saladino-letters, Phil Rachelson and Petra Goldberg-colors So, I have covered the Marvel Two-In-One components in the Misfit Team-Ups thread, in detail, so I will be summarizing and spend more time on the FF side. You can read it here....Basically, Ben messes around with Reed's time machine and Nazis end up in the present, so they have to go back to 1942 and fix the timeline (so says the Watcher) and end up with the Invaders, fighting Baron Zemo, which is how he ends up covered in Adhesive X. They return and Ben meets up with the Watcher, again, and has to go back again, because it still isn't right, Ben travels back, witnesses Sky Shark, a Nazi flyer (based on Blackhawk, I suspect), attack New York and be repulsed by the Liberty Legion. Sky Shark, Master Man and other Nazi agents run around grabbing things, which are then used to create a flying Swastika, which crashes into buildings. ben and the Legion fight master Man, U-Man and Sky Shark and smash the swastika and Ben goes back home, with the vibranium cylinder that caused all of this, when it broke loose and rolled into the time machine. John Romita makes a cameo, as a kid, in 1942. On to Invaders Annual #1 Cover by Alex Schomburg, in a blast from the past! Creative Team: Roy Thomas-writer/editor, F & F Express, Alex Schomburg, Don Rico and Lee Elias-art, Joe Rosen, Tom Orzechowski, Carol Lay and John Costanza-letters, George Roussos-colors The issue is said to occur between issues 15 and 16. Synopsis: The team races through the streets of London, after another aerial attack and follow the Human Torch to the Palace of Westminster and the famous clock tower, and up to the clock, itself, better known as Big Ben (the clock is Big Ben, the tower was renamed the Elizabeth tower, in 2012), where Torck truns the hands of the clock and the face swings open....  They go inside, where they meet Major Rawlings (Royal Army) and Colonel Farrow (US Army) their new liason officers. They designate Big Ben as their regular meeting place, then brief them on a mission to the US, to stop a trio of Nazi agents: The Hyena, Agent Axis, and Shark (but not Sky Shark). Hyena and the Shark were fought by Torch and Namor, before the war; but, they were busted out of prison and serve the Nazi cause, along with Agent Axis. Namor, Cap and Torch are detailed to round them up, while Bucky and Toro remain in Great Britain, for morale boosting appearances. The adults, happy to be shed of their burdons, peal out of there like parents going on a weekend to a hotel suite, with a package from Fredericks of Hollywood. Our first chapter focuses on the Human Torch (and is drawn by Schomburg), as he visits a military hospital to get info about an attack by the Hyena. He plots another attack on an Army truck and Torch turns up to stop him.  Hyena tricks him into crashing into a vat of water and then removes a blood sample, while Torch is out of it. He revives, then disappears. Next, Don Rico draws Cap in New York, where he meets a contact, at the Statue of Liberty and learns that Agent Axis was three spies (German, Italian and Japanese), who were mashed together, into a gestalt entity, ala Theodore Sturgeon's More Than Human.  Uncle Adolf sent him to destroy his enemies, mostly to get rid of the freak. He confronts Cap, carrying Cap's original shield. It doesn't go well; but, he gasses Cap, who falls into the water below, while Agent Axis escapes, in an autogyro. Subby (drawn by Lee Elias and Frank Springer) goes huntil for the Shark, gets zapped and ends up a prisoner.  He escapes, kicks Axis, then ends up pulled out of time, just like Torch and Cap and find themselves in an alternate 1942, facing the Avengers, as we get the Invaders' side of that battle.  They have their fight and return to their 1942 and fight Agent Axis, the Hyena and the Shark,,,,  They whoop on them and then tow their boat back to shore and toss them into a cell. Thoughts: Roy has a text page, where he outlines the origin of the project, to do an old fashioned anthology-style story, focusing on each of the characters and then bringing them together for the finale. He was going to get Kirby to do Cap, but he was tied up with the Silver Surfer graphic novel. Bill Everett was dead and Roy couldn't locate Carl Pfeuer (who was probably to ashamed to show himself, after Super Green Beret). However, Lee Elias was doing some work for Marvel and had worked on the post-war Subby stories; so, he was in, along with regulars Franks Robbins and Springer. Carl Burgos was gonna do the Torch, but had to bow out, at the last minute and Alex Schomburg was recruited. Roy had hung out with Don Rico, in California and got him involved. The rest was just to tell the Invaders side of their battle with the Avengers, when Kang and the Grandmaster messed with them. The other Nazi agents were just there to get Cap his original shield and give the others something to do, in their solo chapters. Personally, it does little for me. Nice as it is to see the artists back, the story is nothing spectacular and ends up rather cliched and kind of dull. The best thin you can say that came out of it was Agent Axis would turn up again, later. Not a favorite, by a long stretch and kind of a sign that things are on the downward slope. Roy mentions the All-Winners Squad and plugs What If...? #4, which I will get to, as a kind of epilogue. Next, back to the war.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 28, 2023 20:06:57 GMT -5
Invaders #22 The Asbestos Lady? I think we need the Oyls! I didn't know Lex Luthor had a band! Creative Team: Roy Thomas-writer/editor, Jim Mooney & Frank Springer-art, John Costanza-letters, Phil Rachelson-colors, Archie Goodwin-still consulting. Synopsis: The Invaders, with the aid of Namor, have safely made a belly landing in the English Channel. The Royal Navy comes out to greet them and they all scramble aboard the HMS Forester, which Roy calls a cruiser; but, the HMS Forester was a destroyer. They hide the fact that Lord Montgomery was Union Jack, as sailors rave about the new one, who is his son, Brian. Everyone frets about Toror's condition and Jacqueline asks Torch about him, as they pass the time on their journey back to port. He talks about finding the boy in a circus, doing fire tricks; but, we learn more, as Jacqueline questions why he was so affected by the drugs used on them (Namor, too), when others, like Bucky weren't. Young Toro and his parents were on a train, heading off on a vacation, when it collides with another train and his parents die in the resulting fire. Toro tried to rush int he burning car and was unharmed. he is found by a couple, who immediately want to exploit him....  Except, that ain't the truth! (It never is, so now it can be revealed!). He talks of visiting Professor Horton, his creator, to ask for a bride.... whoops, wrong story? Horton speaks of an assistant, Fred Raymond. Fred is sick, from too much exposure to asbestos, in his research, while his new bride is trying to be Marie Curie and has irradiated herself with radium. So, as you do, they get married and somehow have a kid and she carries him to full term. They name him Toro, because they intend for him to handle their lawn care, when he is old enough. The familial bliss of terminal illness and exploitive gardening is broken up by a criminal, the Asbestos Lady, a foe of the Human Torch (because The Thunderer isn't phased by her, though no one would know it, because no one reads or reprints his stories.  (Nice insulation!) Asbestos Laby, Bess, for short, wants Fred to help her explore the criminal possibilities of asbestos.....such as..............their pants not bursting into flame, when they lie to the police? The Torch comes to their aid, by burning down their house. The crooks scram and Torch sucks back the flame and then notices Toro sleeping, unaffected. Fred says he is immune to fire and they saw him stick his hands in fire to pull out some roasting potatoes. Torch heads off to hunt for the Asbestos Lady (check for anyone visiting a hospital for treatment of asbestosis). Fred gets word that Nora is soon to be toast and he takes them on a last trip, resulting in their deaths and Toro being exploited by circus people, who are evil because they are transient. Bess goes to the circus, after hearing about a fire-eating boy and Torch heads there, too. Her hoods soak Torch, then dump his unconscious form into a tank of water. he heats his body until the water boils and turns into steam and explodes. Torch barbecues her henchmen and goes after the boss; but, she gets away. And we are back in 1942, while Toro is rushed to hospital, for treatment. Thoughts: Um......yeah. Roy is trying to give a scientific reason for Toro's abilities (how about the Torch's, aside from being "an android?") an has come up with mutant, as that obviously means spontaneous combustion and manipulation of the resultant fire. So, he messes with Toro's stated origin to give him a foundation for being a mutant: his parents were exposed to toxic levels of asbestos and radium. Right, because said toxic exposure wouldn't affect their fertility or anything, not to mention affect Nora's body enough to cause a miscarriage or a stillbirth, due to it's rapidly deteriorating nature. On the whole, this just isn't especially compelling and ends up horribly cliched and silly. The idea that Toro and Namor, as mutants/hybrids, were more susceptible to the drugs used on them, rather than the normal humans, like Bucky. because, any such mutation would make them weaker than some shmoe sidekick/mascot. One thing you can say, Jim Mooney gives Asbestos Lady some nice curves, but can't do much about the ugly costume or stupidly specific MO. This issue is pretty damn forgettable and kind of adds to the disappointment factor of the fractured climax to the Berlin adventure and carries us on a side tale that is pretty dull. Next time, we head to Egypt, where some Blue Beetle rip-off is messing around with Nazis and taking shots at the British colonial rule. I mean, why side with a dictator when you can be ruled by a more benevolent despot, who denies you self rule? Damned natives don't know how good they have it under British dominance, wot? It reminds me of my time in the Khyber...... ps There was an HMS Forester, which was a destroyer, which took part in the attack on the French fleet, at Mers-el-Kebir (Vichy French, to be accurate) and took part in convoy escort duty, until D-Day, when it was part of the force protecting the landing ships from E-boat and U-Boat attacks. Either Roy heard about it and got the ship's type wrong, thought it up and it was a coincidence, or he named it that after CS Forester (Which was a pen name for Cecil Smith), the author of the Hornblower series of Napoleonic naval adventures, as well as the book, The Last Nine Days of The Bismark (aka Sink the Bismark!), about the battle to destroy the German battleship Bismark, after it sank HMS Hood. Take your pick. "The Blue Sky Mine" refers to the Wittenoom asbestos mines, in the Western Australia Province. The mines were owned by the Colonial Sugar Refining Company, where "blue asbestos" was mined, until it was shut down, due to unprofitability and the health hazards.
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Post by foxley on Oct 28, 2023 20:43:28 GMT -5
The 'Lex Luthor' singing there is Peter Garrett, who later went into politics and served as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Arts and later Minister for School Education, Early Childhood and Youth.
Is there some Toro/gardening link I'm missing?
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Post by EdoBosnar on Oct 29, 2023 4:27:40 GMT -5
The 'Lex Luthor' singing there is Peter Garrett, who later went into politics and served as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Arts and later Minister for School Education, Early Childhood and Youth. Is there some Toro/gardening link I'm missing? Lex Luthor? Garrett always looked more like Michel Foucault to me... ...to the point that I sometimes think the latter just faked his death and moved to Australia under a new identity...
Otherwise, the video for "Blue Sky Mine" is quite well-regarded among Croats, because one of the gravestones (at 1:35) is that of a Croatian immigrant.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 29, 2023 20:07:41 GMT -5
The 'Lex Luthor' singing there is Peter Garrett, who later went into politics and served as Minister for the Environment, Heritage and the Arts and later Minister for School Education, Early Childhood and Youth. Is there some Toro/gardening link I'm missing? Toro is a brand of lawn mowers, in the US. I knew that about Garrett. Who would have thought the lead singer of such a politically neutral band would go into politics?  The funny thing is, in the US, their main claim to fame was the single "Beds Are Burning," thanks to heavy MTV rotation. I guess I never paid that close attention to the video, as I didn't realize Garret was 7 ft tall, until later. I bought some music video compilation tapes, off of eBay (home edited) and one had several Midnight Oil videos, none of which I ever saw on MTV (most of the recordings were either from MTV2 or VH1 Classics). All of these new (to me) songs were clicking with me, where I had been somewhat ambivalent about Beds Are Burning (it grew on me, over the eyars, especially as I learned more of the history of the song and the band) . That got me to pick up more of their music and it was clear how big he was, in the other videos and the CD images. |
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Post by foxley on Oct 30, 2023 1:53:50 GMT -5
Toro is a brand of lawn mowers, in the US. I knew that about Garrett. Who would have thought the lead singer of such a politically neutral band would go into politics? The funny thing is, in the US, their main claim to fame was the single "Beds Are Burning," thanks to heavy MTV rotation. I guess I never paid that close attention to the video, as I didn't realize Garret was 7 ft tall, until later. I bought some music video compilation tapes, off of eBay (home edited) and one had several Midnight Oil videos, none of which I ever saw on MTV (most of the recordings were either from MTV2 or VH1 Classics). All of these new (to me) songs were clicking with me, where I had been somewhat ambivalent about Beds Are Burning (it grew on me, over the eyars, especially as I learned more of the history of the song and the band) . That got me to pick up more of their music and it was clear how big he was, in the other videos and the CD images. Thanks for the clarification.
Not quite 7ft, but Garret is 6'4". I've never known how popular the Oils were outside Australian, as they always felt like a very Australian band. It does not surprise me, however, that "US Forces" did not get airplay in America.
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