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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 20, 2023 13:09:00 GMT -5
Archie Meets The Punisher was a lot of fun, without a massive bodycount. That demonstrated why the Batman and Punisher crossover received a mediocre response; it was more grim and dire stuff. Most of the DC and Marvel crossovers of that time were, at best, okay. A few of them had a spark that lifted them up, like Steve Rude doing the Hulk and Superman one, or John Byrne's WW2-set Batman and Captain America. Generally speaking, I found the crossovers with indie publishers to be more entertaining, like the Batman/Predator stuff, the Batman and Grendel and the aforementioned Archie & Punisher. If only Dave Cockrum could have done an X-Men (circa the earlier days) and Legion crossover. Bell-bottoms and bikini tops galore!
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Post by zaku on Dec 20, 2023 14:05:01 GMT -5
That demonstrated why the Batman and Punisher crossover received a mediocre response; it was more grim and dire stuff. I've just re-read the second part, and really, in my opinion, from a qualitative point of view it didn't seem worse than the average output of the two characters at the time. Was that the exact moment readers reached saturation point with "grime & dark" material?
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 20, 2023 14:59:16 GMT -5
That demonstrated why the Batman and Punisher crossover received a mediocre response; it was more grim and dire stuff. I've just re-read the second part, and really, in my opinion, from a qualitative point of view it didn't seem worse than the average output of the two characters at the time. Was that the exact moment readers reached saturation point with "grime & dark" material? Personally, I think about the mid-90s, the audience was completely numbed to it and the fallout of speculators revealed how few were actually buying this junk, particularly as lighter material gained bigger and bigger audiences, like Waid on Flash, or Jeff Smith's Bone, or Astro City, once it comes along. Similarly, we had Marvels, where Busiek and Ross celebrated heroism and altruism, not anti-heroes looking for bodycounts. I probably sated far earlier than the majority, with my job as a supply officer in the US Navy, in the middle of a shooting war, kind of sickening me of the bloodlust I was seeing on CNN, in comics and entertainment and in my own building, as our commodore was itching to be in the fighting, because it would give him combat points towards making admiral. After seeing people in the Pentagon get Silver Stars, without ever setting foot in a combat zone and a ship's captain, who ignored a surrender and slaughtered an Iraqi position get the same award, which is supposed to be for valor, not murder, I had enough of grim violence in entertainment. I used to read espionage and technothrillers and found, apart from more literate writers, like John Le Carre, I couldn't stomach that stuff anymore. I had my fill of action movies, with gun toting heroes and ammunition flying across the scream, with big explosions. It's also part of why the Marvel movies, as a whole, rarely rose to more than just "okay." With the specific examples, I think Punisher and Batman was just more of the same, while Archie Meets The Punisher was something much different, much lighter in tone and actually very well done. Archie didn't get grittied up and the Punisher wasn't turned into Mr Weatherbee; but, he was affected by being in Riverdale, that violence wasn't necessarily the answer to the problem he faced. It remarks that Riverdale was a special place, that needed to be protected and I think the audience responded to that and the more they got a return to heroes who tried to rise above, the more they supported that. Starman is a good example. It is born out of Zero Hour, which was another bloodfest crossover, as they offer up failures as casualties and try to kill off most of the Justice Society. Then, here comes this book, about the heroic legacy and a new generation trying to live up to the accomplishments of the previous one and fans took to it and it was critically acclaimed. Jack Knight goes from reluctant, cynical smartass to a true believer and a real hero, fighting to protect the innocent, rather than just responding to attacks on himself. DC slowly followed suit with more books celebrating the legacy of past heroes and building a new generation of protectors, rather than a darker bunch of maniacs. Kingdome Come made it a central theme, that these darker, more violent figures were destroying society and the classic heroes had to show them the way to a better future. So, yeah, somewhere in the middle, I think the audience had enough and started looking for something lighter; and, slowly, the publishers gave it to them and it was successful. I think, by the 2000s reflect that trend in full swing. That's not to say there weren't shifts back, with things like Identity Crisis, or Infinite Crisis, with Blue Beetle getting murdered and Wonder Woman murdering Max Lord.
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Post by commond on Dec 20, 2023 16:17:24 GMT -5
That demonstrated why the Batman and Punisher crossover received a mediocre response; it was more grim and dire stuff. I've just re-read the second part, and really, in my opinion, from a qualitative point of view it didn't seem worse than the average output of the two characters at the time. Was that the exact moment readers reached saturation point with "grime & dark" material? It certainly wasn't '94 as Spawn was the best selling title that year and it's hard to think of a grimmer or grittier comic than that. I just think the Punisher had lost the cachet he had in the early 90s. Sales on his ongoing titles were spiraling and one shots were fewer and farther between. There was an urban legend in the early 90s that Marvel had a filing cabinet full of Punisher inventory that they could publish at a moment's notice. It's probably a myth, but the amount of random Punisher stories that were published in the early 90s makes you wonder.
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Post by zaku on Dec 20, 2023 16:48:57 GMT -5
I've just re-read the second part, and really, in my opinion, from a qualitative point of view it didn't seem worse than the average output of the two characters at the time. Was that the exact moment readers reached saturation point with "grime & dark" material? It certainly wasn't '94 as Spawn was the best selling title that year and it's hard to think of a grimmer or grittier comic than that. I just think the Punisher had lost the cachet he had in the early 90s. Sales on his ongoing titles were spiraling and one shots were fewer and farther between. There was an urban legend in the early 90s that Marvel had a filing cabinet full of Punisher inventory that they could publish at a moment's notice. It's probably a myth, but the amount of random Punisher stories that were published in the early 90s makes you wonder. Now that you mention it, early 90s' Punisher was perfect as inventory material: until Suicide Run he had virtually no ongoing continuity and very few recurring supporting characters.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 20, 2023 17:53:53 GMT -5
Except you would have to pay for those stories and that much inventory is going to run up some high bills and someone is going to ask questions, especially after the 50s Atlas, where Goodman fired everyone because Stan had piled up so much unpublished inventory that they didn't need new art for some time. Notice he didn't fire his wife's cousin, who had gleefully stockpiled the whole thing. Stan was a talented editor and writer; but, a little nepotism helped him out at several key junctures in his career. Other EIC's would not have that kind of backside coverage, especially in a publicly traded company, run by venture capital vultures.
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Post by commond on Dec 21, 2023 5:17:04 GMT -5
November & December 1994
DeFalco was credited as Editor in Chief up until the October releases (cover date December). These are the final books of his tenure:
Generation X debut to positive reviews. Ironically, it was closer in spirit to Louise Simonson's New Mutants than Liefeld's X-Force, the difference being that Lobdell was able to tap into the zeitgeist more convincingly than Simonson. Lobdell and Bachalo would stay on the book for three years, during which it would become both a fan favorite and a best seller. Marvel scores a hit right at the end of the DeFalco era, but don't learn any lessons from it. More on that in a sec.
Fantastic Force makes its debut. Teenage Franklin Richards from the future, his aunt Huntara, Vibraxas the Wakandan, and the Deviant, Devior, with the Black Panther on hand in case anything goes wrong. I feel like you could do an entire Classic Comics Forum In-Depth about Force Works vs. Fantastic Force. Technically, Force Works lasted longer with 22 issues.
Bob Harras brought the world a Vision mini-series that I suppose was meant to bring him back to his status quo, or somewhere close to it. There's a strong case to be made that Vision was the most abused character of the DeFalco era. I type that with him pleading, "Help me... please..." on the forum wallpaper.
There was a Punisher one shot by Mike Baron and Bill Reinhold that had to have been inventory as those guys were long gone from the Punisher at this stage. The DeFalco era came full circle with a Ghost Rider/Wolverine/Punisher one shot that was about four years out of date. Interest in the Punisher seemed to be renewed for some reason as there was also a Punisher: Year One series greenlit. I'm not sure if they were in a mad rush to publish all of this Punisher stuff before his ongoing titles bit the bullet, or if they were trying to save the line, but the Year One series actually has a decent reputation.
In the wake of Marvels' success, people were trying to create other Silver Age themed prestige books such as Peter David's Tales to Astonish. There was also the first issue of a Prince Valiant limited series that Charles Vess and Mike Kaluta worked on.
Hulk got his own 2099 series with a god awful cover. Marvel also inexplicably published a Nightmare limited series by Ann Nocenti, after she'd become the first Vertigo writer to have their book cancelled. Poor Ann.
Wolverine had his first ever meeting with Deadpool, which I'm sure was important to some folks.
Then there's the series I was referring to above. In DeFalco's final month, a "long-awaited" Bishop limited-series finally appeared. Now, as far as I remember, interest in Bishop peaked in the months after his debut when Uncanny was still being drawn by Whilce Portacio, but the interesting thing about this series was that it was the first Marvel work by John Ostrander, and the first work for Marvel outside of Marvel UK by Carlos Pacheco. You have these two talented individuals and what do you do with them? You put them on a Bishop limited series? This was the kind of thing that made me quit Marvel. If more editors had taken note of the success Harras had sticking Bachalo on the X-books, they could have swept up DC talent and created some solid mid-90s work instead of hiring back the Image guys and hitting rock bottom. Who knows, maybe Ostrander could have saved the Midnight Sons line?
For the last year of DeFalco's run, I've been counting down how many issues of G.I. Joe were left. Fitting, they ended in the same month. DeFalco was against cutting books like G.I. Joe, and considering there have now been more issues published outside of Marvel than there were at The House of Ideas, perhaps he had a point.
And with that, DeFalco was out, replaced by separate group editors for different areas until Bob Harras took over as Editor in Chief in '95.
Next time: Why was DeFalco ousted, and what exactly is his legacy?
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Post by MDG on Dec 21, 2023 8:46:27 GMT -5
Except you would have to pay for those stories and that much inventory is going to run up some high bills and someone is going to ask questions, especially after the 50s Atlas, where Goodman fired everyone because Stan had piled up so much unpublished inventory that they didn't need new art for some time. Notice he didn't fire his wife's cousin, who had gleefully stockpiled the whole thing. Stan was a talented editor and writer; but, a little nepotism helped him out at several key junctures in his career. Other EIC's would not have that kind of backside coverage, especially in a publicly traded company, run by venture capital vultures. After hearing how some of these stories expand, it wouldn't be surprising if one or two inventory stories became "a cabinet full" on repeated retellings.
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Post by zaku on Dec 21, 2023 10:20:40 GMT -5
November & December 1994Interest in the Punisher seemed to be renewed for some reason as there was also a Punisher: Year One series greenlit. I'm not sure if they were in a mad rush to publish all of this Punisher stuff before his ongoing titles bit the bullet, or if they were trying to save the line, but the Year One series actually has a decent reputation. I still remember reading this miniseries back then and being amazed that it was actually good, especially compared to the character's regular series. The art was good. The story was good. The script was good. There was this lovely 70's noir feel that was a pleasant surprise. Indeed, some parts were used as the basis of the Punisher film with Thomas Jane.
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Post by commond on Dec 22, 2023 7:00:10 GMT -5
Tom DeFalco Year Seven
The Good, the Bad and the Ugly:
We only have DeFalco's account of why he was dismissed as Editor in Chief. Some of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but the basic facts check out. According to DeFalco, when sales on Marvel's books began to decrease, the higher ups proposed cutting the number of comics Marvel published in half with the aim of doubling profits on the books they continued to print. DeFalco tried to argue that it didn't work like that. He reasoned that if you cancelled Ghost Rider, its fans wouldn't suddenly pick up Captain America. He also argued that if you have four Spider-Man books, cancelling two of them wouldn't increase the sales on the remaining two because it was the same guy buying all four books. The analogy he used was the movies. If three good movies come out in a weekend, you go see one, maybe two, and say you'll catch the third one the next week. If no good movies come out, you don't say you'll go see a bad one. You go for pizza instead.
Whether that's how it actually played out, who knows. DeFalco says he was against the idea to buy their own distributor. He was also against the idea to buy Malibu. He maintains that he was fired. The company appeared to spin it as a resignation. DeFalco was prepared to move on, but was offered a writing contract he couldn't refuse. Marvel's decision to purchase its own distributor would prove disastrous, sales would fall even further, and Marvel would file for bankruptcy in 1996. The bankruptcy makes DeFalco's tenure look better in retrospect, and his popularity among his editors means there are plenty of people who are willing to go on record in his defense. Perelman comes across as the bad guy, with his Andrews Group lackeys being the people who ran the company into the ground, but what is DeFalco's true legacy?
DeFalco was a nice guy. He was a Marvel guy. He was supportive of his editors but he understood what it was like to be a freelance creator. He shielded his staff from the higher ups. He didn't have the vision of his predecessor, Shooter, but guided Marvel to unprecedented heights nonetheless. His MO was to publish as many books as possible, flooding the market so that Marvel was always the most visible company on the newsstands or in the comic shops. He didn't care about the quality of the books as much as he cared about market share. This worked for the first four years of his tenure, but ultimately he couldn't control the speculator market or what Wizard or other trade magazines deemed hot. Sales-wise, Marvel never recovered from the Image guys leaving Marvel, and ultimately the market never recovered from the Image guys being unable to run a company book company properly.
DeFalco, therefore, has a complicated legacy. Where Shooter had a firm hand in the successes of his era, it's hard to say whether DeFalco added much to the success of the Spider-Man or X-Men lines. Many books came and went during the DeFalco era, and Marvel seemed stretched thin in terms of its creative talent. There were a handful of quality books, but there are good books in any era. DeFalco's default mode throughout his tenure was to "make another book." However, to use DeFalco's own analogy, there's only so much pizza you can feed people until they get sick of pizza. I'd argue that Marvel's biggest failing under DeFalco is that it alienated its core fans. Not just through price hikes and gimmick covers, but in terms of basic readability.
That said, it wasn't all bad. It wasn't the most fertile period in Marvel history, but I'm sure I could compile a reading list worth pursuing. Now that my odyssey is over, my next plan is to dabble in the offerings from the DeFalco era and see how many more books I can add to the readable list.
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Post by Calidore on Dec 22, 2023 7:20:01 GMT -5
I've been enjoying this thread, thanks for the history lesson!
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 22, 2023 22:31:41 GMT -5
The Malibu situation was to prevent DC from acquiring it and boosting their market share, according to Tom Mason and Chris Ulm. They had been in talks with Paul Levitz, when Marvel heard about it and swooped in with an offer.
Marvel's owners were, basically, a bunch of venture capital sharks. The Andrews Group name was a shell company subsidiary of the parent bunch, MacAndrews & Forbes, Inc. Since the early 80s, they were acquiring and flipping companies, after stripping them of assets, cutting payroll and then making them look attractive (on paper) to new buyers. They used junk bonds to finance their purchases, including from Michael Milken's Drexel Burnham Lambert. For those who didn't live through the 80s, Milken and his company were selling junk bonds by the ton, but he was also carrying on insider trading and was convicted by the Federal government. The Revlon buyout was done with bonds from Drexel. They also dabbled in Saving & Loan companies, during the Savings & Loan bailout and took in $1.3 billion in government money. They attempted a buyout of Gillette and were once the owners of Compact Video and New World entertainment, the previous owners of Marvel. They also once owned the Coleman Company, as in camping equipment. They still own Scantron, makers of the test forms used for standardized testing.
To say that Perelman was the bad guy is an understatement. Both Marvel and Valiant are prime examples of the waste left in the wake of venture capital firms as their buy/slash/burn/sell cycles, along with companies like Sears, which was a major example of a name and company that was killed by the ego and fast buck mentality of venture capitalists.
DeFalco wasn't a bad editor; but, he never should have failed upwards into the EIC slot
Dan Raviv's book, Comic Wars: How Two Tycoons Battled Over The Marvel Comics Empire...And Both Lost is a terrific account of how Andrews/McAndrews & Forbes Inc operated and will leave you wondering how all of what went on was legal (It's America, baby!)
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Post by rberman on Dec 24, 2023 10:37:09 GMT -5
Thank you for this survey! You gave good context for this pivotal era in American comics.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 24, 2023 11:28:04 GMT -5
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Post by spoon on Dec 24, 2023 15:23:13 GMT -5
The Malibu situation was to prevent DC from acquiring it and boosting their market share, according to Tom Mason and Chris Ulm. They had been in talks with Paul Levitz, when Marvel heard about it and swooped in with an offer. Marvel's owners were, basically, a bunch of venture capital sharks. The Andrews Group name was a shell company subsidiary of the parent bunch, MacAndrews & Forbes, Inc. Since the early 80s, they were acquiring and flipping companies, after stripping them of assets, cutting payroll and then making them look attractive (on paper) to new buyers. They used junk bonds to finance their purchases, including from Michael Milken's Drexel Burnham Lambert. For those who didn't live through the 80s, Milken and his company were selling junk bonds by the ton, but he was also carrying on insider trading and was convicted by the Federal government. The Revlon buyout was done with bonds from Drexel. They also dabbled in Saving & Loan companies, during the Savings & Loan bailout and took in $1.3 billion in government money. They attempted a buyout of Gillette and were once the owners of Compact Video and New World entertainment, the previous owners of Marvel. They also once owned the Coleman Company, as in camping equipment. They still own Scantron, makers of the test forms used for standardized testing. To say that Perelman was the bad guy is an understatement. Both Marvel and Valiant are prime examples of the waste left in the wake of venture capital firms as their buy/slash/burn/sell cycles, along with companies like Sears, which was a major example of a name and company that was killed by the ego and fast buck mentality of venture capitalists. DeFalco wasn't a bad editor; but, he never should have failed upwards into the EIC slot Dan Raviv's book, Comic Wars: How Two Tycoons Battled Over The Marvel Comics Empire...And Both Lost is a terrific account of how Andrews/McAndrews & Forbes Inc operated and will leave you wondering how all of what went on was legal (It's America, baby!) This part of why I find it annoying when some people defend efforts to stack the deck in favor of the rich, then condescendingly tell those who push back that they don't appreciate the work of "job creators." There are many, many, many situations when corporate profits aren't a result of building a better mouse trap or hiring more workers to produce more, but rather cutting costs, raiding companies before dumping the carcass, manipulating tax rules they've lobbied for, etc.
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