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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 15:29:18 GMT -5
Do we have figures for 64 and 65, before Ditko left in mid 66. I see a less than 10% increase over the previous year. Then a drop off in Stan's last years. Is that the soaring to great heights once Ditko left?
I am sure the 4 years Ditko was producing most of the book had nothing to do with it's popularity. Including sole plotting.
And of course Romita never said "sometimes Stan would just give me a sentence or two". So Romita, another top creator, had so much less to do with the success. Stan was the main ingredient in all the success. No one did ask much as Stan.
And what does these sales figure mean? What point is being made? Especially when Superman and Batman are outselling it 2 to 1.
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Post by commond on Jun 24, 2024 15:58:33 GMT -5
From comicchron:
"Also significant about 1966 is that Marvel finally ran its first figures for Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man, in issues #61 and #47 respectively. By this time, both titles were well established, many classic stories having already appeared — and we find Spidey selling over a third of a million copies. We don't know what sales were for these titles between 1962-1965, but it's interesting to note that while they grow throughout the rest of the 1960s, that growth is not dramatic."
Amazing Spider-Man eventually climbs into the top 10 in 1969 (#7) with Fantastic Four just outside at #12, but that had more to do with DC's dramatic decline in sales than the Marvel books experiencing a huge growth in popularity.
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 24, 2024 16:04:16 GMT -5
Comichron has sales figures for Amazing Spider-Man here. GCD has a scan of the first statement of ownership from ASM #47 here. Date of filing was given as 10/1/66. I think ASM #43 would have been the last issue published before that date, but I don't know how long it would take for a given issue's sales to be known, so what the split would have been between Ditko issues and Romita issues is unclear. Average yearly sales were 340k, with the issue closest to filing date selling 363k, suggesting early Romita was probably selling better than late Ditko.I'm certain about that in bold; as posted earlier, in 1966, ASM was #12 among all superhero titles from every publisher. By 1969, ASM rose to #5 (again, with the Fantastic Four--which the Romita/Lee TASM overtook as Marvel's best-seller in 1966, with the F.F. trailing at #9). That rise occurred in the Romita/Lee era, and the point where Spider-Man had become a cultural (and growing licensing) icon, and clearly Marvel's true flagship character/book. If the sales and its ranking rose above anything seen during the Ditko run, and continued to rise to the end of the decade, there's no debating the Romita/Lee team crafted a comic that became far more appealing than the one during Ditko's time on it. As noted on comicchron.com: "Continuing the adventures of the character first appearing in the 15th and final issue of the cancelled Amazing Fantasy, The Amazing Spider-Man would become the flagship title of Marvel's line. By 1969, it had vaulted into the Top 10 titles overall for the year, Marvel's first title to do so."
Numbers simply do not lie, unless one has an agenda to say Lee minus a certain artist floundered on everything else he worked on and there were no true partnerships whatsoever, which is the foundation of the worn-out agenda presented throughout this and other threads.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 24, 2024 16:47:16 GMT -5
Here’s that Roy Thomas version of the story we were talking about earlier …
- from a 2021 article in The Hollywood Reporter, written by Roy Thomas
Stan wanted to accommodate Kirby … because he realized that Kirby was valuable to the company … and to Stan. So, in 1966, after Kirby had - at the very least - been contributing substantially to the plots and providing dialogue suggestions and notes on the original art, Stan as editor stopped crediting himself as writer and we now have a co-credit … “Produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.”
Jack Kirby had been co-plotting the Fantastic Four since 1961. Five years. Before Stan Lee stopped giving himself sole writer credit.
Thomas has to add in that Kirby just wasn’t communicating very well. But I have to ask … If he had no idea that Kirby wanted credit for his plots, why did he make this offer?
And how does Thomas know that Kirby suggested the “produced by” form of the credit? Is that what Stan told him?
I guess every individual reader has to decide for himself.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Jun 24, 2024 19:15:37 GMT -5
From comicchron: "Also significant about 1966 is that Marvel finally ran its first figures for Fantastic Four and Amazing Spider-Man, in issues #61 and #47 respectively. By this time, both titles were well established, many classic stories having already appeared — and we find Spidey selling over a third of a million copies. We don't know what sales were for these titles between 1962-1965, but it's interesting to note that while they grow throughout the rest of the 1960s, that growth is not dramatic." Amazing Spider-Man eventually climbs into the top 10 in 1969 (#7) with Fantastic Four just outside at #12, but that had more to do with DC's dramatic decline in sales than the Marvel books experiencing a huge growth in popularity. Any particular reason the increase to .15 hurt DC more than Marvel? I know about the .25/.20 fiasco but I don't recall reading about the effects of the .15 increase |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 21:28:22 GMT -5
Stan kept the brand alive. Stan would've never had a brand to keep alive if not for Kirby. When Marvel imploded after Goodman's disastrous distribution deal (June of 1957), Stan was the ONLY editor left. He had a full YEAR to do something - anything to keep the company afloat. He came up with NOTHING. Goodman limited him to 8 titles a month because that was the max he could do on his own with just freelancers and a production guy (Brodsky). Kirby has been at DC creating a new hit: Challengers of the Unknown. Joe Maneely is one person who can write AND draw for Stan, and is able to help. When he dies in June of 1958, Goodman pulls all titles and prepares to close down. Enter Jack Kirby who tells him, he'll put together some books that sell and keep things going. That September, Marvel releases three of his new titles: Tales of Suspense #1, Tales to Astonish #1, and Strange Worlds #1. All are Sci-Fi based, something Goodman has never been successful with, but that Kirby has been doing at DC. But Jack is still working freelance elsewhere and with Joe Simon, at Archie they put together The Fly and a reboot of the Shield called the Double Life of Private Strong. Stan Lee meanwhile just survives off of that Kirby work - having nothing to do with it at all and creating NOTHING that works. Marvel just makes enough to get by, thanks to those Kirby books. Goodman gains threatens to close down and pulls all titles again in August of 1959, but Kirby agrees to come on Fulltime at Marvel and he keeps it open. The first Statement of Publication numbers released in October of 1960 show Jack's books leading almost everything Marvel publishes. 1960 Sales Figures Strange Tales #83 - 169,601 per month - 1,529,409 (total sold) Journey/Mystery #66 - 167,125 per month - 1,504,125 Tales to Astonish #18 - 163,156 per month - 1,468,404 Millie the Model #102 - 154,972 per month - 1,084,804 Tales of Suspense #16 - 148,929 per month - 1,042,503 Kid Colt Outlaw #98 - 144,746 per month - 1,157,968 Patsy Walker #94 - 143,474 per month - 1,004,318 Two Gun Kid #59 - 135,256 per month - 946,792 Love Romances #92 - 133, 227 per month - 932,589 1960 TOTAL sales (per Marvel Comics AD): 16,100,000 copies sold 10,670,921 (Top 9 above) - 5,429,079 left - (49 others issues) - 110,797 average in below list The rest of the line (the books below) all averaged only 110,797 copies each... Yikes! Kathy #10?  (#3-9) Life with Millie #11??? (#3-9) My Girl Pearl #11??? Cancelled (#7-10) Patsy & Hedy #75??? (#68-74) Gunsmoke Western #64??? (#56-62) Wyatt Earp #27-29 My Own Romance #73-79) Battle #68 -70) Rawhide Kid #17-20) ————————— Here’s the best breakdown I can do with the numbers I have. Some of these I got from the Comichron list - others I got from the Statements in the Comics - the rest I figured based upon the information available (Marvel Ad). What this shows is that pre-Stan Lee leeching off of Kirby’s star (I.e. pretending to write the stories) - Jack was already responsible for Marvel’s Top 3 sellers and 4 of the 5 Top Sellers. The rest of Marvel’s books averaged 113,854 copies per issue and that’s where most of Stan’s ‘dumb blonde’ comics fell. The Comics that Jack did covers AND Stories for are all the best selling books. Jack’s 4 comics - which he did covers and lead stories for - sold an average of 162,202 The rest of Marvel’s line averaged 124,177. THIS is why Stan latched onto Jack. This is why in 1960 they started expanding Jack into Westerns more because it was Goodman’s favorite genre! Kirby was a SELLER. This is BEFORE Stan began to promote like crazy. This is before any media attention. This is before superheroes. Jack Kirby was helping Marvel sell books based entirely upon HIS content. HIS stories. HIS art. HIS words. From here, Marvel just followed his lead, started eliminating Stan’s garbage books and began to go up in sales the rest of the decade (though still never surpassing DC in the 60’s). |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 21:36:49 GMT -5
Jack's books would dominate more the following year:
Strange Tales #96 191,261 per month - 2,103,871 — 11 (^21,660)
Tales to Astonish #31 184,895 per month - 2,033,845 — 11 (^21,739)
Millie the Model #108 184,733 per month - 1,293,131 - 7 (^29,761)
Tales of Suspense #29 184,635 per month - 1,846,350 — 10 (^35,706)
Journey Into Mystery #79 182,090 per month - 2,002,990 — 11 (^14,965)
Kid Colt Outlaw #104 152,877 per month - 917,262 — 6 (^8,131)
Rawhide Kid #28 150,162 per month - 750,810 - 5
During this time, Stan does Linda Carter, Student Nurse and My Girl Pearl - all failures.
All of this leads to Goodman again preparing to shut down. Kirby's plea to give superheroes a try is the only thing that 'saves' the Marvel brand.
NOT Stan Lee. He wasn't much more than an observer through these 4 years.
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 21:52:43 GMT -5
Stan kept the brand alive. Kirby and ditto never pushed the products and if you relied on them, Marvel would have faded away. Indded. I will always point to a very uncomfortable fact (for the Lee-did-little-to-nothing crowd) easily seen through the process of elimination: history proves The Amazing Spider-Man grew into a publishing and licensing juggernaut under the Romita/Lee era. This was not happening during Ditko's run. Post Marvel--specifically post Lee, Ditko never created or worked on a character with anywhere near the level and impact of Spider-Man once he departed from the title. In Kirby's case, who is going to argue that his post Lee output (no matter how good New Gods turned out to be) approached or matched the height of his run with Lee? If they're being honest, they will not make such an argument. There is a reason why, and it's not a coincidence Lee was the key element involved. Amazing Spider-man's first Statement of Publication is done on October 1st of 1966. That means the latest book that they'd have numbers for would be what was released in August of 1966. That would've been Amazing Spider-man #42, released August 9th, 1966. That means the Statement of Publication numbers were for issues #31 (September of 1965) through #42 (August of 1966). EIGHT Ditko issues and FOUR Romita issues. Ditko books made up 66.6% of those numbers. And Spider-man was already outselling the Fantastic Four (340,155 to 329,379). But then, we already KNEW this based on what Stan had told us in the Bullpen Bulletins. ASM was their #1 selling book - while Ditko was doing it. And Romita would also certainly get the benefit of having the best Cartoon series done of the show starting just a year later... |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 21:56:15 GMT -5
I want to add to princenamor, that Ditko came on doing his monster and Sci Fi stories that also sold. So much that Amazing Fantasy was all his book.
The Marvel line right before and right after Kirby arrives is radically different.
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 21:57:15 GMT -5
Where are the sales figures that sales got better when Romita took over? I know FF sales fell after Kirby left. But that was also during a down period for all comics. Fantastic Four: 1966 329,379 1967 329,536 1968 344,865 1969 340,363 1970 285,639 (Kirby leaves mid-1970) 1971 275,930 1972 245,605 (Under a full year of Kirby, Jimmy Olsen does 299,882) 1973 225,631 1974 218,330 1975 216,260 1976 199,734 1977 194,661 1978 177,802 Not until John Byrne did the FF, would we see the numbers go up. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 21:59:15 GMT -5
I would put Kirby's post Lee output up against Lee's post Kirby output any day.
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 22:02:18 GMT -5
I want to add to princenamor, that Ditko came on doing his monster and Sci Fi stories that also sold. So much that Amazing Fantasy was all his book. The Marvel line right before and right after Kirby arrives is radically different. Amazing Adult Fantasy began in August of 1961, the same month that the Fantastic Four came out. It replaced Kirby's Amazing Adventures, the FIFTH book that Goodman would give Kirby because of the success of the monster books. Kirby was making more money than Lee because of this and it's believed that Lee traded the chance for Jack to do superheroes (under HIS partnership) for taking over the AA book with his own stories with Ditko. Of course like everything Stan had done up to this point in his career, AAF failed and was going to be canceled. Jack Kirby had the only books at Marvel that were MONTHLY. Stan kept AAF monthly after the take over but it crashed and burned after 9 issues. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 22:06:02 GMT -5
I would put Kirby's post Lee output up against Lee's post Kirby output any day. Yep. Not even close. Just New Gods alone is some of his best work and maybe at least 3 stories in there that are the best he ever did. There's NOTHING Stan did after Jack left that would even begin to qualify with that. In fact, when Jack stopped giving away his ideas at Marvel in late 1964 and aimed them all at FF and Thor - what did Stan bring out after that? Nothing. Nick Fury was Jack's. Captain Marvel was Goodman's order to retain licensing. What new ideas did Stan have from 1964 to the end of his career? |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 22:08:52 GMT -5
I would put Kirby's post Lee output up against Lee's post Kirby output any day. Yep. Not even close. Just New Gods alone is some of his best work and maybe at least 3 stories in there that are the best he ever did. There's NOTHING Stan did after Jack left that would even begin to qualify with that. In fact, when Jack stopped giving away his ideas at Marvel in late 1964 and aimed them all at FF and Thor - what did Stan bring out after that? Nothing. Nick Fury was Jack's. Captain Marvel was Goodman's order to retain licensing. What new ideas did Stan have from 1964 to the end of his career? Changing The Silver Surfer into a love sick, complaining downer and Strpperella. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 22:11:23 GMT -5
The first Captain America lasted a decade, long after Kirby and Simon left, and long after his WWII purpose was done, The first issues sold over a million copies, for all those who say Kirby couldn't have hits without Stan. And Challengers was a bigger hit than the Flash when Kirby was doing it. The conversation is centered on the 1960s rise of Marvel as a successful publisher of superhero comics, not Kirby's Silver Age work at DC, or any part of his Golden Age career at all. Its the historic gravity of the Marvel period on which the talent and reputations are judged while there, and it is undeniable that Kirby--after no longer working with Lee at Marvel--never reached the sales figures earned during his partnership with Lee. That is the point, unless someone can post the sales figures for each Kirby title during his entire run at DC, for an accurate comparison. You can't because we don't have access to those numbers. What we DO have is: Fantastic Four 1972 - Lee's last year - 245,605 (down almost 100,000 copies from Jack's last year) Jimmy Olsen. 1972 - Full Kirby year - 299,882 Fourth World book outsells the Fantastic Four. And keep in mind, they were 25 cents to the FF's 20. |
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(#3-9)