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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 24, 2024 22:15:32 GMT -5
And just when we’re getting to some of my favorite Stan Lee dialogue in the Thor thread!
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 22:30:06 GMT -5
Can hardly wait, Hoosier.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 24, 2024 22:34:50 GMT -5
The conversation is centered on the 1960s rise of Marvel as a successful publisher of superhero comics, not Kirby's Silver Age work at DC, or any part of his Golden Age career at all. Its the historic gravity of the Marvel period on which the talent and reputations are judged while there, and it is undeniable that Kirby--after no longer working with Lee at Marvel--never reached the sales figures earned during his partnership with Lee. That is the point, unless someone can post the sales figures for each Kirby title during his entire run at DC, for an accurate comparison. You can't because we don't have access to those numbers. What we DO have is: Fantastic Four 1972 - Lee's last year - 245,605 (down almost 100,000 copies from Jack's last year) Jimmy Olsen. 1972 - Full Kirby year - 299,882 Fourth World book outsells the Fantastic Four. And keep in mind, they were 25 cents to the FF's 20. princenamor, do you know the sales numbers for the other Fourth World books? This has been surrounded in a bit of mystery, with only "they didn't sell" as a refrain |
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Post by berkley on Jun 24, 2024 22:39:28 GMT -5
I would put Kirby's post Lee output up against Lee's post Kirby output any day.
I'd even put Kirby's post Lee output up against Kirby's own work with Lee - though in many ways it's hard to compare them, they're such different types of work. But in terms of quality - always a subjective opinion to some degree, admittedly - I rank them at least at the same level in their respective spheres and from some perspectives higher.
But we've been told a page or two back in the thread that no one can honestly hold such an obviously wrong-headed opinion, so I guess that makes me a great big liar. Nice to know.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 24, 2024 22:52:13 GMT -5
I don't really have a dog in this fight (I think Kirby was a brilliant idea man that didn't really follow through on things and Lee was a brilliant marketer and I don't really care who did what just that they made magic), but I do have a question...
y'all referenced Challengers of the Unknown quite a few times... if it was such a runaway hit, why did Kirby only do a few issues? He did what, 11 stories? 10? (I don't recall exactly how many were in Showcase). I've read them and I enjoy them for what they are... a boy gang in adult form, used as a vechile for wacky bad guys. And that's great, but was it really so great? I mean the Disney was selling 1m+ issues a comic back then
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 24, 2024 23:00:56 GMT -5
For some reason, beating Disney doesn’t seem to be a criteria to be counted as a hit for any of the books that Kirby didn’t do circa 1960.
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 23:19:34 GMT -5
You can't because we don't have access to those numbers. What we DO have is: Fantastic Four 1972 - Lee's last year - 245,605 (down almost 100,000 copies from Jack's last year) Jimmy Olsen. 1972 - Full Kirby year - 299,882 Fourth World book outsells the Fantastic Four. And keep in mind, they were 25 cents to the FF's 20. princenamor, do you know the sales numbers for the other Fourth World books? This has been surrounded in a bit of mystery, with only "they didn't sell" as a refrain They've never been released. According to Paul Levitz when he did his big DC book, he was given access to their records and according to him it was a mid-range seller. They didn't hit their sales potential because 1/3rd of their entire line collapsed from the pricing debacle. Green/Green Arrow by Neal Adams got canceled as well and no one considers THAT a failure. A LOT got canceled because of that 25 cent experiment: Binky - cancelled after 26 years with #82 Falling in Love - cancelled after 18 years with #143 Girls Love (Love Stories) - cancelled after 16 years with #152 Metal Men - cancelled after 10 years with issue #44 Superman’s Girl Fried, Lois Lane - cancelled after 16 years with issue #137 Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen- cancelled after 20 years with issue #163 (well, it would become ’Superman Family’) Strange Adventures - cancelled after 24 years with issue #244 Teen Titans - cancelled after 9 years with issue #44 Green Lantern - cancelled after 13 years with issue #89 Sugar & Spike - cancelled after 17 years with issue #98 Swing With Scooter - cancelled after 7 years with issue #36 Tomahawk - cancelled after 23 years with issue #140 From Beyond the Unknown - cancelled with issue #25 Secrets of Sinister House - cancelled with issue #18 Forbidden Tales of Dark Mansion - cancelled with issue #15 DC 100-Page Super Spectacular - cancelled after 12 issues DC Special with issue #15 Dark Mansion of Forbidden Love after 15 issues Date with Debbi after 18 issues Secrets of Sinister House after 18 issues New Gods after 11 issues Forever People after 11 issues Mister Miracle after 18 issues Other books that managed to avoid the price increase, but STILL got cancelled: Legion of SuperHeroes - cancelled with issue #4 Secret Origins - cancelled with issue #7 Wanted, the World's Most Dangerous Villains - cancelled with issue #9 with NEW material… Sword & Sorcery - cancelled with issue #5 Prez - cancelled with issue #4 |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 24, 2024 23:36:26 GMT -5
Indded. I will always point to a very uncomfortable fact (for the Lee-did-little-to-nothing crowd) easily seen through the process of elimination: history proves The Amazing Spider-Man grew into a publishing and licensing juggernaut under the Romita/Lee era. This was not happening during Ditko's run. Post Marvel--specifically post Lee, Ditko never created or worked on a character with anywhere near the level and impact of Spider-Man once he departed from the title. In Kirby's case, who is going to argue that his post Lee output (no matter how good New Gods turned out to be) approached or matched the height of his run with Lee? If they're being honest, they will not make such an argument. There is a reason why, and it's not a coincidence Lee was the key element involved. Amazing Spider-man's first Statement of Publication is done on October 1st of 1966. That means the latest book that they'd have numbers for would be what was released in August of 1966. That would've been Amazing Spider-man #42, released August 9th, 1966. That means the Statement of Publication numbers were for issues #31 (September of 1965) through #42 (August of 1966). EIGHT Ditko issues and FOUR Romita issues. Ditko books made up 66.6% of those numbers. And Spider-man was already outselling the Fantastic Four (340,155 to 329,379). But then, we already KNEW this based on what Stan had told us in the Bullpen Bulletins. ASM was their #1 selling book - while Ditko was doing it. And Romita would also certainly get the benefit of having the best Cartoon series done of the show starting just a year later... The point is that TASM continued to rise in popularity/sales (and become Marvel's lone flagship title) long after Ditko was out of the door, which flies in the face of those who ignore the sales rankings as a means to erase Lee's creative contributions, which--if the Lee haters' theories had any merit whatsoever--would have resulted in TASM's rapid decline post-Ditko. Obviously, that did not happen--it was just the opposite, thanks to the power of Lee's creative partnership with Romita, which minted the defining image, personality and type of hero's journey for Spider-Man. That did no, and could not happen while Ditko was on the title. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 23:40:25 GMT -5
I don't really have a dog in this fight (I think Kirby was a brilliant idea man that didn't really follow through on things and Lee was a brilliant marketer and I don't really care who did what just that they made magic), but I do have a question... y'all referenced Challengers of the Unknown quite a few times... if it was such a runaway hit, why did Kirby only do a few issues? He did what, 11 stories? 10? (I don't recall exactly how many were in Showcase). I've read them and I enjoy them for what they are... a boy gang in adult form, used as a vechile for wacky bad guys. And that's great, but was it really so great? I mean the Disney was selling 1m+ issues a comic back then You read them? Where do you get 'a boy gang in adult form, used as a vehicle for wacky bad guys'? That is NOT what it was. The Challengers of the Unknown was four men, pretty quickly assisted by a female who went on to fantastic adventures against aliens, magicians, monsters, giant robots... it is exactly what it sounds like - an early prototype of the Fantastic Four. There was nothing 'wacky' about it. It was a serious book. Kirby leaving it, wasn't his choice. He went to court with a DC Editor over kick backs on a newspaper strip he'd somewhat arranged and that editor in spite froze him out of work until he left. Kirby throughout his career never had the benefit of having an in-law to work for as publisher. In total, Kirby did 4 issues in Showcase of the group and then the first 8 issues of its own book. It's success is based upon: Consider: Showcase #4 with Flash comes out July 5th, 1956. Flash wouldn't get his own title released until December of 1958! It would be 2 and 1/2 years until DC felt it was popular enough to carry its own title! (That’s still 2 1/2 years before the Fantastic Four) By that time - Jack Kirby’s Challengers of the Unknown was on issue #6 of its own title!! Lois Lane was already on issue #7! Both of those titles came AFTER Flash in Showcase... (Flash in #4, COTU in #6, Lois Lane in #9). Challengers of the Unknown would appear in a DC title 10 times (6 in its own title) before Flash would get his own book. Lois Lane would appear in Showcase and her own title 9 times before Flash would get his own book. If Lois Lane was selling 458,000 copies in 1960, and Challengers had the same power to get it's own title as quickly as Lois Lane... those Kirby numbers must have been upwards of 400,000 a month as well. Selling more than ANY Marvel Comic during the 1960's. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 24, 2024 23:58:59 GMT -5
Amazing Spider-man's first Statement of Publication is done on October 1st of 1966. That means the latest book that they'd have numbers for would be what was released in August of 1966. That would've been Amazing Spider-man #42, released August 9th, 1966. That means the Statement of Publication numbers were for issues #31 (September of 1965) through #42 (August of 1966). EIGHT Ditko issues and FOUR Romita issues. Ditko books made up 66.6% of those numbers. And Spider-man was already outselling the Fantastic Four (340,155 to 329,379). But then, we already KNEW this based on what Stan had told us in the Bullpen Bulletins. ASM was their #1 selling book - while Ditko was doing it. And Romita would also certainly get the benefit of having the best Cartoon series done of the show starting just a year later... The point is that TASM continued to rise in popularity/sales (and become Marvel's lone flagship title) long after Ditko was out of the door, which flies in the face of those who ignore the sales rankings as a means to erase Lee's creative contributions, which--if the Lee haters' theories had any merit whatsoever--would have resulted in TASM's rapid decline post-Ditko. Obviously, that did not happen--it was just the opposite, thanks to the power of Lee's creative partnership with Romita, which minted the defining image, personality and type of hero's journey for Spider-Man. That did no, and could not happen while Ditko was on the title. The book was successful WITHOUT Stan doing anything but dialoguing it from roughly around #18 through the end of Ditko's run. And then until the end of ROMITA's. But then I'll let the people who were actually there say it for me: “I don’t plot Spider-Man any more. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plot lines, I told him to start making up his own sto- ries. He won’t let anybody else ink his drawings either. He just drops off the finished pages with notes at the margins and I fill in the dialogue. I never know what he’ll come up with next, but it’s interesting to work that way.” - Stan Lee from the Infamous New York Herald Tribune story. “In choosing not to see and communicate with me, Stan never knew what he was getting in my Spider-man (Dr. Strange) stories and covers until after the ritual where Sol Brodsky took the material from me, took it into Stan's office and came out saying nothing about anything. So their couldn't have been any kind of disagreement or agreement, no exchanges, no "lifting idea", no problems between us concerning The Green Goblin or about anything else… - Steve Ditko, in ‘A Mini-History - 1. ‘The Green Goblin’ © 2001 S. Ditko “The only thing he used to do from 1966-72 was come in and leave a note on my drawing table saying “Next Month, the Rhino.” That’s all; he wouldn’t tell me anything; how to handle it.” - John Romita, Comic Book Artist #6, Fall 1999. Yearly Spider-man sales: 1966 340,155 Ditko's last year - #1 Marvel Book 1967 361,663 Spider-man Cartoon TV Series 1968 373,303 1969 372,352 1970 322,195 Down 1971 307,550 Down 1972 288,379 Down 1973 273,204 Down 1974 288,232 1975 273,773 Down 1976 282,159 1977 281,860 Down 1978 258,156 Down Was it more successful under Romita? Well, the Cartoon TV Series co-incides with those numbers rising, and comics in general on an upswing de to the Batman TV show, so... but the fact is - it was Marvel's #1 book under Ditko before Romita ever touched it. Stan TOLD us that in the Bullpen Bulletins. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 25, 2024 0:03:01 GMT -5
thanks to the power of Lee's creative partnership with Romita, which minted the defining image, personality and type of hero's journey for Spider-Man. That did no, and could not happen while Ditko was on the title. LOL. Stan said in 'The Origins of Marvel Comics' that HE created all of the traits that made Spider-man great - the loner, the outsider, etc. But... once Ditko left... Peter Parker became leading man handsome, road a motorcycle, dated the hottest girl in college, had another hot girl (MJ) constantly stalking him, lived in a swank apartment in Manhattan... not quite the rugged individualist that Ditko had created. |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 25, 2024 0:25:12 GMT -5
If Lois Lane was selling 458,000 copies in 1960, and Challengers had the same power to get it's own title as quickly as Lois Lane... those Kirby numbers must have been upwards of 400,000 a month as well. Selling more than ANY Marvel Comic during the 1960's. Pure conjecture. Where are the Challenger sales figures? The Flash was the breakthrough for DC trying to launch new superheroes, so this was new territory, unlike Lois Lane, who was a decades-long, known fixture in the Superman titles. Moreover, Challengers had four issues in Showcase before its own title launch in 1958. The Flash also had four appearances in Showcase before getting his own title in March of 1959. Very similar trajectories for the two concepts, because that was a sort of an average for try-out titles (e.g., Green Lantern only needed three Showcase issues before he received his own title), so its no great credit to Kirby or the Challengers title. The only difference--and a major one--is that The Flash concept resonated, lasting for decades, appearing in numerous titles other than his own, adapted as a cartoon in the 60s, and was heavily merchandised not long after his creation, unlike Challengers.
But... once Ditko left...
Once Ditko left, Spider-Man grew into a pop-culture phenomenon which rocketed the character to becoming the unquestioned flagship title and character for Marvel, coinciding with a licensing boom that only solidified Spider-Man one of the faces of the comic-book medium.
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2024 0:38:49 GMT -5
LOL
Ditko was only able to get 340,000 readers on Spider-Man.
Romita added another 40,000 before the numbers started going down.
And somehow Ditko was a big failure.
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Post by princenamor on Jun 25, 2024 1:01:44 GMT -5
If Lois Lane was selling 458,000 copies in 1960, and Challengers had the same power to get it's own title as quickly as Lois Lane... those Kirby numbers must have been upwards of 400,000 a month as well. Selling more than ANY Marvel Comic during the 1960's. Pure conjecture. Where are the Challenger sales figures? The Flash was the breakthrough for DC trying to launch new superheroes, so this was new territory, unlike Lois Lane, who was a decades-long, known fixture in the Superman titles. Moreover, Challengers had four issues in Showcase before its own title launch in 1958. The Flash also had four appearances in Showcase before getting his own title in March of 1959. Very similar trajectories for the two concepts, because that was a sort of an average for try-out titles (e.g., Green Lantern only needed three Showcase issues before he received his own title), so its no great credit to Kirby or the Challengers title. The only difference--and a major one--is that The Flash concept resonated, lasting for decades, appearing in numerous titles other than his own, adapted as a cartoon in the 60s, and was heavily merchandised not long after his creation, unlike Challengers.
But... once Ditko left...
Once Ditko left, Spider-Man grew into a pop-culture phenomenon which rocketed the character to becoming the unquestioned flagship title and character for Marvel, coinciding with a licensing boom that only solidified Spider-Man one of the faces of the comic-book medium.
It's not pure conjecture. Besides Irwin Donenfeld (look it up) telling us it was a hit, YOU point it out specifically. Showcase WAS a try-out comic. Books got green lit based on the success they showed from sales in it. Challengers of the Unknown, despite showing up in it 4 months AFTER the Flash, got his own series a full YEAR and a half before the Flash did. It's SUCCESS in getting its own title, mirrors that of Lois Lane, who did it just a bit quicker. And how'd that turn out? It was a huge seller. How'd Flash end up doing? It was a good seller. Lois Lane in 1960: 458,000. The Flash: 298,000 Challengers of the Unknown WITHOUT Jack Kirby for almost 3 years: Still hanging in there at 228,000. What Donenfeld tells us - what the numbers tell us - common sense - it's all right there. What 'resonated' isn't in question - the Challengers of the Unknown was a great enough idea to get it's own title faster than the Flash (heh heh), start a new trend followed by Suicide Squad, Sea Devils and eventually the Fantastic Four, and last, even without Kirby, for 20 YEARS, running for 87 issues from 1958 to 1978. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 25, 2024 1:07:48 GMT -5
Once Ditko left, Spider-Man grew into a pop-culture phenomenon which rocketed the character to becoming the unquestioned flagship title and character for Marvel, coinciding with a licensing boom that only solidified Spider-Man one of the faces of the comic-book medium.
It was already the flagship title. It was already Marvel's best seller. Romita took it over on an upward trajectory. He was great, but he took what was already there and sanitized it for the mainstream. |
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