|
|
Post by tarkintino on Jun 25, 2024 8:19:00 GMT -5
The Cartoon in 1966-67 did as much for Spider-man as the comics ever did. The success of the comic and its character's rapidly growing cultural impact was the one and only reason Grantray/Lawrence produced a Spider-Man cartoon. Trolling is not working for you. Again, trolling is not working for you. Spider-Man was the first Marvel character to have a live-action adaptation, first, with his segments on The Electric Company PBS series beginning in 1974, but more formally with The Amazing Spider-Man TV series, which launched in 1977, beating The Incredible Hulk pilot movie to screens by two months. Life began before the Raimi movies, and that should not need to be said to anyone even remotely familiar with a character's history. |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 8:20:46 GMT -5
ASM was already there best seller in 66, which included Ditko's last issues. It sold a little better after. But no "from obscurity to prominence" that you described.
|
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 8:23:53 GMT -5
The Cartoon in 1966-67 did as much for Spider-man as the comics ever did. The success of the comic and its character's rapidly growing cultural impact was the one and only reason Grantray/Lawrence produced a Spider-Man cartoon. Trolling is not working for you. Again, trolling is not working for you. Spider-Man was the first Marvel character to have a live-action adaptation, first, with his segments on The Electric Company PBS series, but more formally with The Amazing Spider-Man TV series, which launched in 1977, beating The Incredible Hulk pilot movie to screens by two months. Life began before the Raimi movies, and that should not need to be said to anyone remotely familiar with a character's ancillary history. Wait? So the cartoon was not green lit because of 5 years of Ditko making him Marvel s most popular character. But because of 6 issues by Romita and Lee? Lee and Romita were doing Spider-Man in 1977? |
|
|
|
Post by tarkintino on Jun 25, 2024 8:30:26 GMT -5
ASM was already there best seller in 66, which included Ditko's last issues. It sold a little better after. But no "from obscurity to prominence" that you described. Lies only deflate whatever position you held, as no one in this thread claimed TASM was in a state of "obscurity" during the Ditko period, but you can continue to deny the numbers, which i'm only happy to repost: In 1966, TASM was ranked #12 among all superhero titles from every publisher. By 1969, ASM rose to #5. That is a significant jump, as opposed to your "a little better", which attempts to imply the Romita/Lee team had a negligible effect on TASM. There's no form of business that believes a product's sales rising from 12 to 5 in a category is a negative or negligible. Truly absurd. Lee/Romita were the reason TASM rose from #12 in 1966 to #5 in 1969, and it had absolutely nothing to do with Steve Ditko.
Lee and Romita were doing Spider-Man in 1977?
Read carefully: no one said they were on the title in 1977. No one. The TV series reference was to counter the "Junior Member"/obvious timely alias' claim it took 35 years for Spider-Man to get a film, as if he had never been adapted in live action up to that point (the implication that he was never popular / impactful enough before 2002--the year of the 1st Raimi film) which is simply a lie--something that has become quite common for those desperate to damn Lee, and apparently Romita, all in the failing attempt to elevate Ditko to the nonexistent godhood platform they're also trying to place Kirby on.
Not working, but if that's how some wish to spend their time, so be it.
|
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 8:31:36 GMT -5
Maybe some would disagree but Romita was a better artist than Ditko and drew the figures beautifully. Both great comic artists. Both had their strengths. Ditko was more creative, Romita a better draftsman. |
|
|
|
Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 8:35:45 GMT -5
Again, the rise in the number on the list was due to the decrease in DC numbers, not a big jump in ASM sales. You continue to use this Stat, but it doesn't mean what you think it does.
I was hyperbolic, but you did say "success of the comic and its character's rapidly growing cultural impact", only happened under under Lee and Romita.
ASM went from #12 to #5 with almost the SAME sales numbers!
By 69, Superman was not selling over 800,000 copies.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202 
|
Post by Confessor on Jun 25, 2024 8:52:35 GMT -5
OK, listen up:
The tone of this discussion over the last few pages of this thread has been deteriorating, with members sniping at each over, using passive aggressive sarcasm, or combative language. All of which are against the forum rules!
Here's a reminder of what those rules say:
"This is a respectful community. Many members will tell you their main reason for coming here is the decency and politeness, even when folks disagree. Personal attacks, passive aggressiveness, just plain combative posts, and/or a general disregard for others will not be tolerated. Please play nice; This is not your ordinary discussion community."
The moderating team have already had to delete one post that crossed the line and we are also discussing potential disciplinary measures against two posters in the thread. So, let's take a breath and start being civil to one another and cut the snark or this thread will be locked.
We're all friends here: we can discuss this and even disagree without resorting to unpleasant language.
Many thanks everybody.
|
|
|
|
Post by tonebone on Jun 25, 2024 8:55:32 GMT -5
This is also a period when TASM roase to become Marvel's far and away best-selling title. There's no spinning that. This is also a period where the character--unlike five of his six selected Marvel stablemates--received a solo animated series, rather than serialized segments (being the longest-running of all 1960s Marvel cartoons with three seasons, while Fantastic Four and Marvel Super-Heroes each had one). The period where numerous non-comic publications covered the appeal of the character to adults (Spider-Man having this appeal more than other Marvel characters). The period where Spider-Man merchandising outpaced his Marvel stablemates, which would continue into the 1970s.
I would also say the merchandising aspect of Spider-Man was not only a barometer of his popularity, but also a catalyst. At any given period in the 70's, there were multiple Spidey action figures, coloring books, Colorforms, board games, video games, etc. I never read a lot of Spider-Man as a kid, but sure had all of the stuff. I saw the comics as secondary to all of the licensing and marketing material. "Oh, yeah. There's a comic book, too." |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2024 8:58:05 GMT -5
Here’s that Roy Thomas version of the story we were talking about earlier … - from a 2021 article in The Hollywood Reporter, written by Roy ThomasStan wanted to accommodate Kirby … because he realized that Kirby was valuable to the company … and to Stan. So, in 1966, after Kirby had - at the very least - been contributing substantially to the plots and providing dialogue suggestions and notes on the original art, Stan as editor stopped crediting himself as writer and we now have a co-credit … “Produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby.” Jack Kirby had been co-plotting the Fantastic Four since 1961. Five years. Before Stan Lee stopped giving himself sole writer credit. Thomas has to add in that Kirby just wasn’t communicating very well. But I have to ask … If he had no idea that Kirby wanted credit for his plots, why did he make this offer? And how does Thomas know that Kirby suggested the “produced by” form of the credit? Is that what Stan told him? I guess every individual reader has to decide for himself. We know that Jack and Roz were extremely hurt and angered by the January 9th, 1966 article in the New York Herald Tribune and that it did irreparable damage to Stan and Jack's professional relationship. I think we can safely assume that the article was the catalyst for the "produced by" credit. Whether Stan suggested it as a means to appease Jack, or Jack demanded it, we'll never know. From what we know of Jack and his personality, I'm inclined to believe that he suggested the shared credit rather than fight for the plotting credit like Ditko did. I'm not sure whether Jack was ready to walk at this point, but he surely must have know the strain that the plotting credit put on Ditko's relationship with Stan, and realistically he must have realized that Stan wasn't above replacing an artist even if Jack leaving was the last thing Stan wanted. Jack's primary motivation, after all, was putting food on the table. We also know that the Kirbys mentioned in the Groth interview that Stan should have at least used a "produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby" credit, seemingly forgetting that Stan did run that credit for several years. I don't know where Roy got the story from. Presumably from Stan. Perhaps from office chat. I don't think you can automatically assume it's untrue because it came from Roy Thomas. We also know that it didn't cause any immediate strife between Lee and Kirby. In fact, in a longer piece Roy wrote about it, he suggests that Stan thought the shared credit meant everything was okay and Jack and Stan were back on an even keel. Like I said. Every reader has to decide for himself. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2024 9:22:51 GMT -5
Are you guys getting numbers from somewhere different?
Here's what Comichron has (which is from the indicia and thus not subject to any faulty memories or nonsense):
1966:
ASM #16 340,155
FF #19 329,379
(Marvel's two best selling titles)
1967:
ASM #14 361,663 (passing Disney Comics and Stories (which dropped alot) and Betty and Veronica)
FF #17 329,536 (passing Disney Comics and Stories and Flintstones, which also dropped alot)
1968:
ASM #12 373,303 (Passing DC stalwards Detective, and JLA, but dropping back behind Betty and Veronica)
FF #16 344,865 (Passing Detective and JLA, drop behind another Archie book)
1969:
ASM #7 372,352 (Passing Batman, Adventure, World's Finest... Tarzan is no longer on the list and Archie seems to have consolidated a bit)
FF #12 340,643
So what I see here is Marvel's sales stayed steady while other publishers fell. Also, the titles stayed very consistent as far as their relative positions... behind those two was Thor then Daredevil then Avengers, all maintaining similar relative positions. Hulk popped in there in '68 and X-Men settled in below the rest.
You know what that tells me? The creators maybe don't matter all that much for sales.
incidently, Challengers when UP from 228k in 1960 to 235K in 1961 down in 195K in 1962 then back up to 221K in 1965 (DC didn't report much in 63 and 64)
While that's not super relevant to the discussion (since we don't have the 1959 indicia to give sales when Kirby was on the book) it was pretty consistent until it dropped along with all the DC titles as Marvel rose.
|
|
|
|
Post by princenamor on Jun 25, 2024 9:25:28 GMT -5
Let's try some basic understanding of numbers. In 1966, TASM was ranked in 1966, ASM was #12 among all superhero titles from every publisher. By 1969, ASM rose to #5. Not too much of a head scratcher to conclude that something...hmmm...whatever that might be...was the reason TASM rose from #12 in 1966 to #5 in 1969. One thing is certain: it was not, nor would it ever be Steve Ditko, no matter how defensive some may be over his work and how he was completely overshadowed by Romita. Yes, let's. Steve Ditko started at ZERO. And built the title over 3 years to be Marvel's #1 seller. WITHOUT the help of Stan Lee for the last year in a half. Without the benefit of the Cartoon series on TV. Without the benefit of the whole industry buzz created by the Batman TV show. HE created a buzz just from the COMIC BOOK. Romita inherited a winner. In the 1963 Alley Awards, it won it's first 'Best Comics Award', as well as it's first 'Top Hero' Award. In the 1964 Alley Awards, it won the renamed 'Best Adventure Hero Comic Book' and it's 2nd 'Best Hero' Award, as well as 'Best Giant Comic' for The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 In the 1965 Alley Awards, it again won 'Best Adventure Hero Comic Book' and it's 3rd year in a row 'Best Hero' Award. Ditko had created, in his three years, the great villains Doctor Octopus, the Vulture, Kraven the Hunter, the Green Goblin, the Sandman (who'd go on to be a member of the Frightful Four), the Lizard, Electro, Mysterio, the Scorpion, the Spider Slayer, the Chameleon, and a host of lesser names like the Molten Man, the Beetle, the Enforcers, the Crime Master, etc. In Romita's SEVEN years we got... the Kingpin? As well as the Rhino, the Shocker.... uh... Man Mountain Marko, the Gibbon, the Prowler, the Kangaroo?.... wow. Ditko created from nothing. Romita inherited a developed series with everything in place. With a TV show and the business of comics booming again... he improved it for a few years by 10%? By 1972, his last year on the book it had fallen 50,000 copies a month to only 288,379. But that's ok. If you're going just by SALES numbers, in about 20 years the greatest Spider-man artist ever would save it by selling over 500,000 copies a month - including a new Spider-man book that would sell over 4 million copies a month - Todd McFarlane. Sarcasm. |
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2024 9:49:39 GMT -5
OK, listen up:The tone of this discussion over the last few pages of this thread has been deteriorating, with members sniping at each over, using passive aggressive sarcasm, or combative language. All of which are against the forum rules! Here's a reminder of what those rules say: " This is a respectful community. Many members will tell you their main reason for coming here is the decency and politeness, even when folks disagree. Personal attacks, passive aggressiveness, just plain combative posts, and/or a general disregard for others will not be tolerated. Please play nice; This is not your ordinary discussion community." The moderating team have already had to delete one post that crossed the line and we are also discussing potential disciplinary measures against two posters in the thread. So, let's take a breath and start being civil to one another and cut the snark or this thread will be locked. We're all friends here: we can discuss this and even disagree without resorting to unpleasant language. Many thanks everybody. Well said all around, Confessor. I truly don't understand how people get this worked up over two dead guys who can't read what you're posting and likely wouldn't care about your opinion even if they could. Coming here to talk comics is supposed to be FUN. If your pride is on the line because someone doesn't see Lee or Kirby the way you do, then you may have some deeper work to do than constructing a snarky multi-paragraph rebuttal. |
|
|
|
Post by Icctrombone on Jun 25, 2024 9:58:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 25, 2024 10:06:27 GMT -5
(...) I truly don't understand how people get this worked up over two dead guys who can't read what you're posting and likely wouldn't care about your opinion even if they could. (...) QFT. And hear, f-in' hear. |
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2024 10:19:09 GMT -5
Yes, let's. Steve Ditko started at ZERO. And built the title over 3 years to be Marvel's #1 seller. WITHOUT the help of Stan Lee for the last year in a half. Without the benefit of the Cartoon series on TV. Without the benefit of the whole industry buzz created by the Batman TV show. HE created a buzz just from the COMIC BOOK. Romita inherited a winner. In the 1963 Alley Awards, it won it's first 'Best Comics Award', as well as it's first 'Top Hero' Award. In the 1964 Alley Awards, it won the renamed 'Best Adventure Hero Comic Book' and it's 2nd 'Best Hero' Award, as well as 'Best Giant Comic' for The Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1 In the 1965 Alley Awards, it again won 'Best Adventure Hero Comic Book' and it's 3rd year in a row 'Best Hero' Award. Ditko had created, in his three years, the great villains Doctor Octopus, the Vulture, Kraven the Hunter, the Green Goblin, the Sandman (who'd go on to be a member of the Frightful Four), the Lizard, Electro, Mysterio, the Scorpion, the Spider Slayer, the Chameleon, and a host of lesser names like the Molten Man, the Beetle, the Enforcers, the Crime Master, etc. In Romita's SEVEN years we got... the Kingpin? As well as the Rhino, the Shocker.... uh... Man Mountain Marko, the Gibbon, the Prowler, the Kangaroo?.... wow. Ditko created from nothing. Romita inherited a developed series with everything in place. With a TV show and the business of comics booming again... he improved it for a few years by 10%? By 1972, his last year on the book it had fallen 50,000 copies a month to only 288,379. But that's ok. If you're going just by SALES numbers, in about 20 years the greatest Spider-man artist ever would save it by selling over 500,000 copies a month - including a new Spider-man book that would sell over 4 million copies a month - Todd McFarlane. Sarcasm. A lot of great points, Mr. Namor. Keep up the great work. |
|
