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Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 10:46:05 GMT -5
Well said all around, Confessor. I truly don't understand how people get this worked up over two dead guys who can't read what you're posting and likely wouldn't care about your opinion even if they could. Coming here to talk comics is supposed to be FUN. If your pride is on the line because someone doesn't see Lee or Kirby the way you do, then you may have some deeper work to do than constructing a snarky multi-paragraph rebuttal. Well, there is thing called the internet.... |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 25, 2024 10:46:30 GMT -5
I would also say the merchandising aspect of Spider-Man was not only a barometer of his popularity, but also a catalyst. At any given period in the 70's, there were multiple Spidey action figures, coloring books, Colorforms, board games, video games, etc. I never read a lot of Spider-Man as a kid, but sure had all of the stuff. I saw the comics as secondary to all of the licensing and marketing material. "Oh, yeah. There's a comic book, too." In part, but the total dominance of Spider-man merchandising over other Marvel characters began during the Lee/Romita era, when the character finally rose to the top of Marvel's roster, where it would remain for many years to follow. Moreover, so many items of merchandise featured Romita's work (long before he became art director and was also working with various companies by designing their merchandise), that being yet more hard evidence of the astounding impact he had on the character. Arguably more than Kane, Infantino or Adams with Batman, Romita's Spider-Man art was ubiquitous--quite inseparable from the vast level of the character's merchandising over the course of decades. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 25, 2024 11:02:30 GMT -5
I bet John Romita was very appreciative of taking over Ditko’s Spider-Man when it was already Marvel’s top-selling title (340,000), and, yeah, it’s great that Romita was able to attract 40,000 more readers over five years.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 11:17:25 GMT -5
Whose art on Merch?   |
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Post by tarkintino on Jun 25, 2024 11:18:11 GMT -5
OK, listen up:The tone of this discussion over the last few pages of this thread has been deteriorating, with members sniping at each over, using passive aggressive sarcasm, or combative language. All of which are against the forum rules! Here's a reminder of what those rules say: " This is a respectful community. Many members will tell you their main reason for coming here is the decency and politeness, even when folks disagree. Personal attacks, passive aggressiveness, just plain combative posts, and/or a general disregard for others will not be tolerated. Please play nice; This is not your ordinary discussion community." The moderating team have already had to delete one post that crossed the line and we are also discussing potential disciplinary measures against two posters in the thread. So, let's take a breath and start being civil to one another and cut the snark or this thread will be locked. We're all friends here: we can discuss this and even disagree without resorting to unpleasant language. Many thanks everybody. Understood, but as you see, your directive is being deliberately ignored. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
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Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2024 11:32:23 GMT -5
Understood, but as you see, your directive is being deliberately ignored. from the very post you quoted. and we are also discussing potential disciplinary measures against two posters in the thread.
And from the OP of this very thread. It's inevitable that folks want to discuss and debate the grayer aspects of Stan Lee's legacy. Since it's such a touchy subject, I've decided to start the thread myself with a few key caveats that I request we all follow: 1. Play nice. No matter what. If you need a refresher on this community's Rules of the Road, why not take a moment to review them now? 2. If you feel someone has crossed a line, report the post so that we moderators can handle it. Please don't respond in kind or you will risk facing consequences.3. Listen if you want to be heard. Keep your mind open if you want others to keep their minds open. You don't know everything about this topic, and you haven't considered every perspective either. 4. Your feelings are not facts. 5. Your facts won't necessarily change someone's feelings. 6. Stan Lee is not perfect. Jack Kirby is not perfect. Steve Ditko is not perfect. Get over it. 7. Criticize people's actions; don't judge them as a whole. Stan Lee is not "a liar", though he has definitely told falsehoods. There is a difference. 8. People misremember things. Don't always assume ill intent. There shouldn't be a need to explain any more than this. |
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Post by princenamor on Jun 25, 2024 12:19:09 GMT -5
Whose art on Merch? He was the fan voters #1 superhero for three years under Ditko, so it makes sense they started merchandising him.   |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 25, 2024 12:30:00 GMT -5
And in the late 60s, early 70s, they had the guy drawing Spider-Man, doing some of the licensing stuff. And that proves??
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 25, 2024 12:32:34 GMT -5
My brother and I had many of the Captain Action costumes, including that one. I think at the time of the ads that are posted, Romita hadn't arrived on the scene yet. If you look at the ads in the 70's and 80's , Romita is the artist being used to sell merch.
Ditko will forever have a place in history for Spider-man and Dr. Strange.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 25, 2024 13:16:16 GMT -5
I know it's not exactly what we're discussing here, but I've just gotta say...
I thought both the Ditko and Romita eras were fantastic!
The tone changes a little as Ditko's tenure ends and Romita's begins, for sure, but in-universe, I've always attributed Peter's transition from an angry, bitter, scrawny 15-year-old to a more assured, handsome guy of 18 or 19 to the process of growing up. Plenty of guys (myself included) go from being gangly, rake-thin teenagers, who suck with the ladies, to relatively more handsome and confident 18 or 19 year olds with hot girlfriends. To me, the transition of Peter Parker under Ditko and Romita (and later Kane and Andru) represents a fairly typical male transition from high school teenager to early 20s adult.
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Post by tonebone on Jun 25, 2024 13:53:37 GMT -5
I would also say the merchandising aspect of Spider-Man was not only a barometer of his popularity, but also a catalyst. At any given period in the 70's, there were multiple Spidey action figures, coloring books, Colorforms, board games, video games, etc. I never read a lot of Spider-Man as a kid, but sure had all of the stuff. I saw the comics as secondary to all of the licensing and marketing material. "Oh, yeah. There's a comic book, too." In part, but the total dominance of Spider-man merchandising over other Marvel characters began during the Lee/Romita era, when the character finally rose to the top of Marvel's roster, where it would remain for many years to follow. Moreover, so many items of merchandise featured Romita's work (long before he became art director and was also working with various companies by designing their merchandise), that being yet more hard evidence of the astounding impact he had on the character. Arguably more than Kane, Infantino or Adams with Batman, Romita's Spider-Man art was ubiquitous--quite inseparable from the vast level of the character's merchandising over the course of decades. I know there are examples of Ditko art merchandising, but Spider-Man (and Marvel-at-large) did not become a viable IP Licensing entity until Romita came along and filed off the rough (visual) edges of the character(s). His simplicity of style, rounded forms, consistent eye shapes and webbing spacing/placement made Spidey a homogenous on-model character that could now be pushed across multiple form factors. Romita's clean style made EVERY drawing of Spidey look like licensing art. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 25, 2024 13:53:53 GMT -5
I don't feel like I've read enough Ditko to have a huge opinion of him... his Dr. Strange stuff is certainly unique and trippy, but I definitely like Romita's Spidey better.
I'm not sure I've read anything else by him... I know he did some things but none of them every really grabbed my attention.
I would say though that I feel like the character and personality of Spider-Man (which I would consider being more established by Lee's scripts than anything else) and his supporting cast had more to do with the popularity than the art and design.. unlike FF, where I think the sci fi concepts and plots were more of the attraction (and more influenced by the artist).
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 25, 2024 14:56:11 GMT -5
I have never been a Spider-man fan. The only time I bought his book was in the 80’s with the Hobgoblin era. Spectacular was great also.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2024 15:43:29 GMT -5
I have never been a Spider-man fan. The only time I bought his book was in the 80’s with the Hobgoblin era. Spectacular was great also. I never really liked Spider-Man until I read Ultimate Spider-Man. Peter Parker always felt like a character I should have liked but the book, no matter the writer or artist really clicked with me until Bendis wrote him as something approaching an actual teenager which I loved. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 25, 2024 23:35:54 GMT -5
I know it's not exactly what we're discussing here, but I've just gotta say... I thought both the Ditko and Romita eras were fantastic! The tone changes a little as Ditko's tenure ends and Romita's begins, for sure, but in-universe, I've always attributed Peter's transition from an angry, bitter, scrawny 15-year-old to a more assured, handsome guy of 18 or 19 to the process of growing up. Plenty of guys (myself included) go from being gangly, rake-thin teenagers, who suck with the ladies, to relatively more handsome and confident 18 or 19 year olds with hot girlfriends. To me, the transition of Peter Parker under Ditko and Romita (and later Kane and Andru) represents a fairly typical male transition from high school teenager to early 20s adult.
It's interesting - almost a case where the change in artist necessitated a change or development in the character. Not that Romita couldn't have drawn a younger, more geeky Peter Parker if he'd wanted to, I'm sure, but his natural style was to render Parker as we saw him in those comics, a handsome young man rather than an awkward, geeky teen. So it made total sense for Stan Lee's writing of the character to reflect all that - whichever, the writing or the art, gave the initial impulse to this process - maybe Stan was also more comfortable with that sort of character and made the change as soon as Ditko left?
A similar thing happened in the Conan the Barbarian series with the transition from BWS's younger, leaner version of the lead character John Buscema's more mature, bulkier rendition. I think the character changed a bit too though in a much less marked way than in Spider-Man, with the BWS era Conan more inexperienced, more of a thief, more often duped by women, and the Buscema-era more of a wandering mercenary and more in control of the situation and of himself. I wonder if this was a development that Roy Thomas had planned all along and would have done even if BWS stayed on as artist? I imagine so, but perhaps not at exactly the same time (actually, I haven't read the first year or two of Buscema's run so maybe there was a transition period that I haven't seen).
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