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Post by princenamor on Jun 28, 2024 0:42:52 GMT -5
Here's Daniel Greenberg again, this time on the FF with Lee and Buscema: FF 113: The Over-mind knows all about the FF, and mind controls the Mayor to get them arrested to help him "crush the universe."
FF 114: The Over-mind has no idea who the FF are.
Background:
Jack Kirby's DC Comics writing was universally praised in 1971 by fan votes and by major media like the New York Times. Conversely, Stan Lee's writing was rejected by fans, getting not a single vote for his issues without Jack Kirby.
So Stan Lee quit writing and launched the infamous 1970s "knock letters" propaganda campaign to relentlessly denigrate Kirby's writing over the course of years. Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, and a host of True Believer Marvel writers and writer wannabes flooded the fan press and letters pages with a single message: Jack Kirby needs a writer.
Could they reverse the universal fan and press accolades for Jack Kirby's writing? Yes.
To this day, many True Believers still slavishly follow Lee's propaganda to claim that Kirby is a bad writer. But when Lee's objectively bad writing is shown, they claim all art is "subjective."
But Jack Kirby's writing is still as good as fans and the press originally knew in 1971. And Stan Lee's writing is still objectively bad, despite the twin propaganda campaign that Lee is a modern Homer or Shakespeare.
Lee's books without Kirby are riddled with inconsistencies and failures of motivation on page after page:
At least Stan Lee had a month to forget the Over-Mind's plan and motivation. In Lee's Silver Surfer #1, the Surfer is so motivated by kindness that he can't even destroy planets that might develop intelligent life... until two panels later when he finds intelligent life on Earth and calls Galactus to destroy it.
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Post by commond on Jun 28, 2024 3:49:07 GMT -5
The Fantastic Four issues after Kirby left are largely mediocre but the series doesn't tank. It just lacks the excitement you'd expect from The World's Greatest Comic Magazine. Romita with the benefit of A TV Cartoon only goes up 10% and it's considered a 'win', but the Fantastic Four loses 94,758 copies a month from Kirby's last full year in the same amount of time (down 27.8%) and it's considered NOT tanking? By 1978, it was down 47.7% from Kirby's last full year. Lee jumped from a sinking ship. 1969 340,363 1970 285,639 1971 275,930 1972 245,605 (-27.8%) 1973 225,631 1974 218,330 1975 216,260 1976 199,734 1977 194,661 1978 177,802 (-47.7%) How'd Lee's 'writing' hold up in Spider-man? Down every year he remained on the book (1972 down 22.5%) and a decade of diminishing numbers.. 1969 372,352 1970 322,195 1971 307,550 1972 288,379 (-22.5%) 1973 273,204 1974 288,232 1975 273,773 1976 282,159 1977 281,860 1978 258,156 (-30.6%) Fantastic Four didn't tank after Kirby left. It remained Marvel's second best selling book. Sales figures were down across the board. If there had been a faster drop towards the late 70s figures I could see your point. Besides, if you following your logic, FF was already losing readers while Kirby was still on the book. |
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Post by commond on Jun 28, 2024 3:53:09 GMT -5
We’re constantly being told that Stan never wrote anything so what I’m interested in is whether there are examples of Stan being a competent writer. I don’t think there’s much evidence that Stan was building to something like the FF, as I don’t believe Stan had much control over the types of books Atlas published. However, there’s more to the FF than space rockets and monsters. I’m curious as to whether Stan’s experience writing humor, romance and teen books played any role his scripting of the FF. That said, I realize that Jack was the one plotting and drawing the scenes for Stan to script over. However, we know Stan had a tendency to drastically change Jack’s dialogue suggestions for better or worse. Often for the worst in terms of how Jack intended the story to be told. I never said Stan didn't write anything. So I don't know what people mean when they say that. I don't think they literally mean that "Stan never wrote anything." I think they mean Stan took credit for a lot of stuff that somebody else did. Maybe they are considering "writing" to be separate from "dialogue," which can be confusing. Maybe they are taking about Stan's alleged ghost writers. I certainly do wish that everyone in the discussion could be a little more precise with terms like that. Anyway, I am linking to full stories from the 1940s and 1950s that are attributed to Stan Lee. So I am providing examples of Stan's work from the Golden Age and pre-Kirby Silver Age. I meant the quote from Kirby's interview with Groth where he said Lee never wrote anything, which has been repeated ad nauseum ever since. I have been consulting the work of Timely & Atlas historian, Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. His research has highlighted a number of things I'd like to read -- link |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 28, 2024 5:10:20 GMT -5
Those Lee/ Buscema issues were the sweet spot for me. From about 111- through the 130's I was hooked. Especially great was the introduction of the Airwalker in #120. Kirby didn't have a hand in the creation.  |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 28, 2024 5:28:30 GMT -5
Those Lee/ Buscema issues were the sweet spot for me. From about 111- through the 130's I was hooked. Especially great was the introduction of the Airwalker in #120. Kirby didn't have a hand in the creation. The FF is kind of bumpy right after Kirby leaves. But I love that Galactus story arc with Gabriel the Air Walker. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 28, 2024 5:36:32 GMT -5
I never said Stan didn't write anything. So I don't know what people mean when they say that. I don't think they literally mean that "Stan never wrote anything." I think they mean Stan took credit for a lot of stuff that somebody else did. Maybe they are considering "writing" to be separate from "dialogue," which can be confusing. Maybe they are taking about Stan's alleged ghost writers. I certainly do wish that everyone in the discussion could be a little more precise with terms like that. Anyway, I am linking to full stories from the 1940s and 1950s that are attributed to Stan Lee. So I am providing examples of Stan's work from the Golden Age and pre-Kirby Silver Age. I meant the quote from Kirby's interview with Groth where he said Lee never wrote anything, which has been repeated ad nauseum ever since. I have been consulting the work of Timely & Atlas historian, Dr. Michael J. Vassallo. His research has highlighted a number of things I'd like to read -- linkNobody in this thread is treating the Groth interview as any kind of gospel. I just did a search of “Groth” and found several references to it, but they are all very critical. Nobody in this thread is using the Groth interview as any kind of proof that Stan never wrote anything. If the Groth interview is being used to hammer home the idea that Lee wrote nothing, it’s not by anybody in this thread. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 28, 2024 6:02:26 GMT -5
"We are constantly being told..." No you are not. What we have is people trying to claw back credit for the true creators from the Stan Lee hype machine that has been going on for 6 decades. They entire mainstream media, including the biggest entertainment corporation has deemed Stan Lee the author of the Marvel Universe and the greatest creator in comics history.
You have been constantly told for decades that Stan Lee's Origins book was the gospel and not a pack of lies. People still ask how the FF would be if Jack Maneely was still alive, as if Kirby was just a plug and play cog in the wheel.
And then, as princensmor has pointed out, when Kirby went on to show his creative strengths, you had decades of "True believers" degradating his solo work telling the World he couldn't do without Stan writing the words.
This is what you have been constantly told.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 28, 2024 6:21:17 GMT -5
What was great about Gabriel beyond Buscema's art? He was a robot herald of Galactus who the Surfer easily defeats.
I loved that story too when I was 15, but it is somewhat a mess with some odd turns. And it is also a bit of a repeat of FF 48-50.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 28, 2024 6:34:14 GMT -5
And then, as princensmor has pointed out, when Kirby went on to show his creative strengths, you had decades of "True believers" degradating his solo work telling the World he couldn't do without Stan writing the words.Which is, lest we forget, a completely justified -- though obviousy subjective -- opinion to hold. There is no right or wrong answer on this topic: you either like Kirby's post-Marvel writing or you don't. And a lot of people don't, which is just fine. If fans loved Kirby and Lee on Fantastic Four and Thor, but found the likes of OMAC or New Gods to be nowhere near as well written, it's a perfectly sensible thing for them to look for the difference that seperates the two, and that difference is Stan Lee's scripting. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 28, 2024 6:36:32 GMT -5
What was great about Gabriel beyond Buscema's art? He was a robot herald of Galactus who the Surfer easily defeats. I loved that story too when I was 15, but it is somewhat a mess with some odd turns. And it is also a bit of a repeat of FF 48-50. Couldn't you say that about any story ? The solution to the three parter was unlike the Galactus trilogy. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 28, 2024 6:36:52 GMT -5
An example of how Stan is given credit and Jack is not. On the Wikipedia page for Vibranium it says it was introduced in Daredevil #13 written by Stan Lee and art by John Romita. But that is not true, Romita needed help with plotting and that books has layouts by Kirby, meaning he plotted it and introduced Vibranium to the MU. It did not appear again until FF #53, when Kirby as plotter brought it back.
Now I tried to edit Wikipedia several times. Not to say Kirby created Vibranium, which he did, but only to have his layout creditvfor DD #13, which is on the splash page, added.
Every time I did this, wiki reverts it back to just Lee and Romita.
There is a lot of trying to set the record straight on this thread, in the world at large, Stan is still the greatest comic creator of all time.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 28, 2024 6:38:50 GMT -5
What was great about Gabriel beyond Buscema's art? He was a robot herald of Galactus who the Surfer easily defeats. I loved that story too when I was 15, but it is somewhat a mess with some odd turns. And it is also a bit of a repeat of FF 48-50. Couldn't you say that about any story ? The solution to the three parter was unlike the Galactus trilogy. You mean a deus ex machina that sends Galactus away? Sure nothing like it. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,201
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Post by Confessor on Jun 28, 2024 7:28:16 GMT -5
On the Wikipedia page for Vibranium it says it was introduced in Daredevil #13 written by Stan Lee and art by John Romita. But that is not true, Romita needed help with plotting and that books has layouts by Kirby, meaning he plotted it and introduced Vibranium to the MU. It did not appear again until FF #53, when Kirby as plotter brought it back. Now I tried to edit Wikipedia several times. Not to say Kirby created Vibranium, which he did, but only to have his layout creditvfor DD #13, which is on the splash page, added.
Every time I did this, wiki reverts it back to just Lee and Romita.Do you have a reliable, third-party source for that? If so, then the editors of Wikipedia should alllow it to stand, as long as you add an inline citation to a reliable source supporting this claim. If you don't have a reliable source, then it's not accurate enough for Wikipedia. The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. EDIT: I'm a long-time editor on Wikipedia, mostly on music articles. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 28, 2024 8:16:43 GMT -5
On the Wikipedia page for Vibranium it says it was introduced in Daredevil #13 written by Stan Lee and art by John Romita. But that is not true, Romita needed help with plotting and that books has layouts by Kirby, meaning he plotted it and introduced Vibranium to the MU. It did not appear again until FF #53, when Kirby as plotter brought it back. Now I tried to edit Wikipedia several times. Not to say Kirby created Vibranium, which he did, but only to have his layout creditvfor DD #13, which is on the splash page, added.
Every time I did this, wiki reverts it back to just Lee and Romita.Do you have a reliable, third-party source for that? If so, then the editors of Wikipedia should alllow it to stand, as long as you add an inline citation to a reliable source supporting this claim. If you don't have a reliable source, then it's not accurate enough for Wikipedia. The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. EDIT: I'm a long-time editor on Wikipedia, mostly on music articles. I’m pretty sure the layouts are credited to Kirby in the comic book itself. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 28, 2024 8:31:49 GMT -5
In Lee's Silver Surfer #1, the Surfer is so motivated by kindness that he can't even destroy planets that might develop intelligent life... until two panels later when he finds intelligent life on Earth and calls Galactus to destroy it. Quite an indictment of mankind's true worth, there!!!  |
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