Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread

kirby101
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 9:41:51 GMT -5 Roquefort Raider likes this

Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 9:41:51 GMT -5

I have no reason to think that not true. That Kirby did not love doing the monster books makes sense. He would have preferred the more SciFi stories. He also loved doing Westerns and coming off of DC where he was doing heroes, one could see why he pushed Goodman for going in that direction.
That said, he was a consummate professional and would always do his best for the books given him.
Think of John Buscema, who always disparaged super heroes, didn't read the books or care about the characters. What he cared about was his work as a draftsman and telling a story. So his concentration was on the plotting and layouts, not the world of the Marvel U.
I am sure Kirby and all the artists got tired of the repetition of the monster books and were thankful for the super heroes. Except Heck, who should have been doing westerns and crime/action stories.

"For want of a better name!"

kirby101
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 9:53:57 GMT -5

Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 9:53:57 GMT -5

As for this Kirby/Ditto lead story stuff. There is no question that once they came on board, Marvel's line up radically changed and the sales on the books they worked on were the lead sellers. It all goes to who really saved Marvel.
I want to point out again that we have two versions. Kirby saying he pushed Goodman into doing super heroes and then he and Stan reworked a story they had already done for one of the anthology books into a team reminiscent of his Challengers.
Or Goodman, having a golf game with the head of DC is told that their Justice league book is selling like gangbusters (even though it is well below the Superman books sales) and Goodman tells Stan to do superheroes.
Stan doesn't want to do the same old superheroes (which he never really worked on in the first place and only created the generic Jack Frost) and his wife tells him to be bold. Stan comes up with the bickering family group (something common in Kirby's own books, Newsboys, Boys Ranch...) and dreams up the FF. Then takes an old inventory story by Kirby and creates the team.

You can believe which ever one you want.

Last Edit: Jul 12, 2024 12:05:36 GMT -5 by kirby101

"For want of a better name!"

tarkintino
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 12:23:00 GMT -5

Post by tarkintino on Jul 12, 2024 12:23:00 GMT -5

It is quite a wild stretch to believe Kirby and Ditko created Marvel superheroes in a vacuum completely independent of a writer with vision (particularly in uncharted territory for the publisher), where they just dropped into Marvel and like the snap of a finger, were completely responsible for launching what Marvel is best known for. Not only is that historically inaccurate, as demonstrated through this thread and elsewhere, but again, the process of elimination--in this case, Lee's creativity--one must return to the question of what "creative heights" did Kirby or Ditko reach comparable to the biggest while working with Lee--with any consistent basis once they left Marvel? If the two men in question were such great creators, there would be no stopping them from taking this talent anywhere (especially after "escaping" the alleged "constraints" of the "villainous" Stan Lee) and capturing lightning in a bottle more than once. No, New Gods--inarguably Kirby's lone standout post-Lee/Marvel creation, or for Ditko, the Question (who would see its best interpretation long after Ditko no longer had anything to do with the character) or co-creations Hawk and Dove or The Creeper are simply not consistent examples, and obviously nowhere near as successful. The named characters/books were the outlier of their post Lee/Marvel output, which brings that glaring light back to the actual nature of Marvel's creative process, leaving no room for the fiction that Lee was not as responsible for many Marvel successes during and after the departures of Ditko and Kriby.

commond
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 15:32:40 GMT -5

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 15:32:40 GMT -5

To answer my own question, I just read Strange Tales #77 where Kirby & Ayers sign the artwork for the first time. That happens to be the same month that the book becomes a monthly publication, but I don't know if there's a connection.

I quite enjoyed this essay by Nick Caputo -- Who authored Ditko? From what I can gather, Stan appeared to be working with Ditko on his stories while Lieber did most of the work on the Kirby monster stories.

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:13:59 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:13:59 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 5:45:03 GMT -5 commond said:

I have a question.

In an interview for nterview for the New York 1975 Comic Art Convention Handbook, Kirby said, "I was given monsters, so I did them. I would much rather have been drawing Rawhide Kid. But I did the monsters… we had Grottu and Kurrgo and It… it was a challenge to try to do something – anything – with such ridiculous cha

Was Kirby's heart really in these monster stories? Why did Lee, Kirby & Ayers sign their names to the Rawhide Kid stories but no one signs their name to the monster stories?

I've quite enjoyed the final Challengers stories that Kirby did, and I think his work on Rawhide Kid is more rewarding than his work on the anthology books has been. Both Heck and Ditko are doing better work on the anthology books, so it's not simply an issue of them being short stories. Ditko began experimenting with splash pages and both Ditko and Heck use far more interesting "camera" angles than Jack. Ditko, in particular, seems to be getting intensely into his stories. I liked a couple of recent Kirby stories I read, but I'd be hard pressed to call them the best story in the issue. I realize this thread is meant to be about Stan, but I'm using it as a catch-all thread to avoid dragging this into other threads.

Kirby never signed his name to the stories. Lee and Ayers added it when it's there.

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:16:19 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:16:19 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 9:53:57 GMT -5 kirby101 said:

Or Goodman, having a golf game with the head of DC is told that their Justice league book is selling like gangbusters (even though it is well below the Superman books sales) and Goodman tells Stan to do superheroes.

Both Jack Liebowitz (co-owner and publisher of DC Comics with Harry Donenfeld from the late 30’s to 1991) and Irwin Donenfeld (Harry’s son, publisher and editorial director of DC Comics for most of the 1950s and 1960s) were asked about it:

“I’m sure I didn’t discuss anything with him about that..."
— Jack Liebowitz from DC Comics: Sixty Years of the World’s Favorite Comic Book Heroes by Les Daniels, Bulfinch Press, 1995.

AUDIENCE: I’d like to ask you about two more urban legends that I heard for many, many years. Either you or Jack Liebowitz, apparently, were responsible for two great successes for your competition. The first story goes that either you or Jack were playing golf with Martin Goodman and you told him about the success of Justice League. Martin Goodman went back to Stan Lee and said, “We need a group of super-heroes.” And thus was born The Fantastic Four.
IRWIN DONENFELD: I read that in one of the books. Never happened.
—audience Q&A, Irwin Donenfeld interview, SDCC 2001, conducted by Mark Evanier and Robert Beerbohm, Alter Ego #26, July 2003.

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 15:32:40 GMT -5 commond said:

To answer my own question, I just read Strange Tales #77 where Kirby & Ayers sign the artwork for the first time. That happens to be the same month that the book becomes a monthly publication, but I don't know if there's a connection.

I quite enjoyed this essay by Nick Caputo -- Who authored Ditko? From what I can gather, Stan appeared to be working with Ditko on his stories while Lieber did most of the work on the Kirby monster stories.

There is zero proof that Larry Lieber wrote any of Kirby's Monster stories for him. There is however, Kirby's penciled, handwritten dialogue in the word balloons of the original art.

Anyone who wants to read Larry Lieber as a Kirby 'writer', just read Journey Into Mystery #88 (claimed to be written by Lieber - obviously written by Kirby) and then read Journey Into Mystery #90 (first Lieber written issue WITHOUT Jack to do the actual writing).

commond Friendly Neighborhood Regular Posts: 2,856	Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:31:17 GMT -5 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 17:31:17 GMT -5 Where is this original artwork?

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:33:59 GMT -5 Hoosier X likes this

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:33:59 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 3:56:37 GMT -5 commond said:

Jul 12, 2024 0:24:55 GMT -5 princenamor said:

Goodman had like a 3 month period to try other cover artists before Jack took over completely.

Kirby Covers.
September 1958 - 3 of the 4 Sci-Fi covers
October 1958 - 0 of the 2 Sci-Fi covers
November 1958 - 0 of the 4 Sci-Fi covers
December 1958 - 1 of the 2 Sci-Fi covers
January 1958 - 3 of the 4 Sci-Fi covers
February 1958 - 2 of the 2 Sci-Fi covers
March 1958 - 4 for 4 of the Sci-Fi covers
April 1958 - 2 for 2 of the Sci-Fi covers
April 1958 - 3 for 3 of the Sci-Fi covers
ETC

No. Kirby's stories led off 90% of those books. MORE than 90%. FACT. You're just repeating what you've been led to believe.

I'll show you one, and then you can go do the rest on your own:

30 issues of Journey Into Mystery from #52 to #82 (all PRE-Thor)
Kirby - 28 times with the lead story.
Ditko - 2
93.3% (That's MORE than 90% of the time)

Facts.

Here's what I've read thus far. This covers the period from 1958-59. For clarity's sake, the lead feature is defined as whatever appears on the cover regardless of the order in which it appears.

Strange Worlds #1 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Strange Worlds #2 (Cover: Ditko, LF: Heck)
Strange Worlds #3 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Strange Worlds #4 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Buscema)
Strange Worlds #5 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck)

Tales to Astonish #1 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Tales to Astonish #2 (Cover: Ditko, LF: Sinnott)
Tales to Astonish #3 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Reinman)
Tales to Astonish #4 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Sinnott)
Tales to Astonish #5 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Tales to Astonish #6 (Cover: Kirby, LF; Ditko)
Tales to Astonish #7 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Tales to Astonish #8 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck)
Tales to Astonish #9 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck)

Tales of Suspense #1 (Cover: Heck, LF: Heck)
Tales of Suspense #2 (Cover: Ditko, LF: Sinnott)
Tales of Suspense #3 (Cover: Buscema, LF: Sinnott)
Tales of Suspense #4 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Tales of Suspense #5 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Forte)
Tales of Suspense #6 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Tales of Suspense #7 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Tales of Suspense #8 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Tales of Suspense #9 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)

Strange Tales #67 (Cover: Sinnott, LF: Ditko)
Strange Tales #68 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Sinnott)
Strange Tales #69 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Burgos)
Strange Tales #70 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Strange Tales #71 (Cover: Jack Davis, LF: Ditko)
Strange Tales #72 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Strange Tales #73 (Cover; Kirby, LF: Kirby)
Strange Tales #74 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Kirby)

I haven't read Journey into Mystery yet, but let's have a looksie.

Journey into Mystery #49 (Cover: Maneely, LF: Forte) NB: not new stories, but the book returned from hiatus and changed to sci-fi from this issue
Journey into Mystery #50 (Cover: Sinnott, LF; Ditko)
Journey into Mystery #51 (Cover: Heath, LF: Ditko)
Journey into Mystery #52 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Sinnott)
Journey into Mystery #53 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck)
Journey into Mystery #54 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Journey into Mystery #55 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Ditko)
Journey into Mystery #56 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck)
Journey into Mystery #57 (Cover: Kirby, LF: Heck, Kirby (splash))

I'm not going to bother with the math, but I can tell you it's not 90%. Even if you consider the lead feature to be the first story in the book, it doesn't help Kirby's case much. The fact is the pattern of Kirby doing the cover and the lead feature (as the first story in the book) was established in Tales of Suspense and Strange Tales once Kirby began doing the monster stories not sci-fi stories.

You stopped at a very convienient time.

Tales to Astonish - Kirby was the lead story in #9 and would be the lead story through issue #40. 32 straight issues.

Tales of Suspense - Kirby would do the lead feature from #7 through #35. 29 straight issues of the lead feature is again, pretty telling.

Journey Into Mystery - 27 straight issues with the lead feature, leading up to Thor.

Strange Tales - 30 straight issues with the lead feature, leading up to the Human Torch.

Kirby does the lead feature in only 2 of the 5 Strange Worlds and it’s… canceled.

Kirby would also do all 6 lead stories in Amazing Adventures (6 for 6, 100%) before Stan took it over and turned it into Amazing Adult Fantasy and… it wouldn’t last a year before it was canceled.

So it looks like once Kirby began doing covers and lead features, he actually was doing it 100% of the time.

It's pretty easy to see who Goodman considered as his SELLER of books.

princenamor Junior Member Posts: 48	Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:50:37 GMT -5 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Back to Top Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:50:37 GMT -5 Jul 12, 2024 17:31:17 GMT -5 commond said: Where is this original artwork? Plenty of examples out there.

commond
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5 Roquefort Raider and tarkintino like this

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5

I didn't stop at a convenient time. 1958-59 was the post-implosion period where Atlas began publishing sci-fi books. Kirby's involvement in the books wasn't that high until he joined Marvel full-time and was given the monster stories to do.

I can safely assume that haven't been any comparisons between original Kirby monster artwork and the actual published comics since historians would have been all over that a long time ago. It seems fairly apparent that Kirby was being given scripts. Whether he followed them or not is anybody's guess. It would appear that Lieber scripted the dialogue, possibly Stan at times. The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on.

Hoosier X
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5 via mobile

Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5 commond said:

The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on.

I like those stories a lot. And a lot of people agree with me. What you like and don’t like is pretty subjective. I really hope we can agree on that at least.

With this flying dreadnaught under me, I can wipe out all mankind! Now the Hulk will be the HUNTER instead of the HUNTED!

commond
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 18:13:03 GMT -5 via mobile Roquefort Raider likes this

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 18:13:03 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5 Hoosier X said:

Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5 commond said:

The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on.

I like those stories a lot. And a lot of people agree with me. What you like and don’t like is pretty subjective. I really hope we can agree on that at least.

I can accept that. I shouldn’t be making value judgments on the quality of the stories.

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 18:34:37 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 18:34:37 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5 commond said:

I didn't stop at a convenient time. 1958-59 was the post-implosion period where Atlas began publishing sci-fi books. Kirby's involvement in the books wasn't that high until he joined Marvel full-time and was given the monster stories to do.

I can safely assume that haven't been any comparisons between original Kirby monster artwork and the actual published comics since historians would have been all over that a long time ago. It seems fairly apparent that Kirby was being given scripts. Whether he followed them or not is anybody's guess. It would appear that Lieber scripted the dialogue, possibly Stan at times. The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on.

There's zero proof that Larry Lieber was writing scripts for Jack Kirby on those monster stories.

And none of it was ever mentioned until after Kirby passed away.

In fact, even when they reprinted the material in the 70's, and first did the Collected Editions, Lee was listed as the writer, with no mention of Larry whatsoever.

Of course, Lee took critcism for that, since he signed ZERO Kirby monster stories from the era.

Zero.

It was KNOWN to be a lie. But how to cover up that glaring lie? By saying Stan 'plotted' and had Larry script.

princenamor
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Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread Jul 12, 2024 18:35:39 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 18:35:39 GMT -5

Jul 12, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5 Hoosier X said:

Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5 commond said:

The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on.

I like those stories a lot. And a lot of people agree with me. What you like and don’t like is pretty subjective. I really hope we can agree on that at least.

For what they are, the stories are actually very well done. And pretty much read the same as his DC stories he did like that.

Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 9:41:51 GMT -5

Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 9:53:57 GMT -5

Post by tarkintino on Jul 12, 2024 12:23:00 GMT -5

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 15:32:40 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:13:59 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:16:19 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 17:31:17 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:33:59 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 17:50:37 GMT -5

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 17:59:07 GMT -5

Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2024 18:05:14 GMT -5

Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 18:13:03 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 18:34:37 GMT -5

Post by princenamor on Jul 12, 2024 18:35:39 GMT -5

Ya know, THAT Stan Lee thread