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Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 18:50:28 GMT -5
I didn't stop at a convenient time. 1958-59 was the post-implosion period where Atlas began publishing sci-fi books. Kirby's involvement in the books wasn't that high until he joined Marvel full-time and was given the monster stories to do. I can safely assume that haven't been any comparisons between original Kirby monster artwork and the actual published comics since historians would have been all over that a long time ago. It seems fairly apparent that Kirby was being given scripts. Whether he followed them or not is anybody's guess. It would appear that Lieber scripted the dialogue, possibly Stan at times. The stories aren't that good so the writing credit isn't a hill worth dying on. There's zero proof that Larry Lieber was writing scripts for Jack Kirby on those monster stories. And none of it was ever mentioned until after Kirby passed away. In fact, even when they reprinted the material in the 70's, and first did the Collected Editions, Lee was listed as the writer, with no mention of Larry whatsoever. Of course, Lee took critcism for that, since he signed ZERO Kirby monster stories from the era. Zero. It was KNOWN to be a lie. But how to cover up that glaring lie? By saying Stan 'plotted' and had Larry script. There may be zero proof that Stan or Lieber had anything to do with the monster stories but there is likewise zero proof that Jack did them by himself. That’s why there are historians who devote themselves to this very topic. Other artists are on record as saying they received scripts from Stan during this era. Ditko said he didn’t write the stories he was doing. Jack never received a single script even during the period when he was freelancing? Despite the fact that they were still using inventory from their previous sci-fi books? I find that a little hard to believe. It doesn’t diminish the greatness of Jack Kirby to suggest that he may have received a few plots or scripts during.his time, or received input from his editor, or even had someone script the captions and dialogue. |
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Post by commond on Jul 12, 2024 18:53:01 GMT -5
Let’s not forget that in 1958 he was a freelance comic book artist in need of work, not some comic book god.
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 21:32:06 GMT -5
Or Goodman, having a golf game with the head of DC is told that their Justice league book is selling like gangbusters (even though it is well below the Superman books sales) and Goodman tells Stan to do superheroes. Both Jack Liebowitz (co-owner and publisher of DC Comics with Harry Donenfeld from the late 30’s to 1991) and Irwin Donenfeld (Harry’s son, publisher and editorial director of DC Comics for most of the 1950s and 1960s) were asked about it: “I’m sure I didn’t discuss anything with him about that..." — Jack Liebowitz from DC Comics: Sixty Years of the World’s Favorite Comic Book Heroes by Les Daniels, Bulfinch Press, 1995. AUDIENCE: I’d like to ask you about two more urban legends that I heard for many, many years. Either you or Jack Liebowitz, apparently, were responsible for two great successes for your competition. The first story goes that either you or Jack were playing golf with Martin Goodman and you told him about the success of Justice League. Martin Goodman went back to Stan Lee and said, “We need a group of super-heroes.” And thus was born The Fantastic Four. IRWIN DONENFELD: I read that in one of the books. Never happened. —audience Q&A, Irwin Donenfeld interview, SDCC 2001, conducted by Mark Evanier and Robert Beerbohm, Alter Ego #26, July 2003. I was hoping it would be obvious that the second version is myth making. Hard to believe there are (and I guess there still are) people who accept any part of Stan's version. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 21:42:24 GMT -5
Let’s not forget that in 1958 he was a freelance comic book artist in need of work, not some comic book god. A decade before he was a million selling creator. Goodman knew him as someone who could deliver a complete comic. Which he and Simon were doing when Stan was a gopher. At DC he wrote and drew the Challengers and revamped Green Arrow (which people tend to forget.) If not for that a$$hole Jack Schiff, he would have stayed at DC and there would be no MU. It's been asked before. What did Stan Lee create before he came up with all the ideas for the Marvel U? Did needing work somewhere diminish his creative strengths? |
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 12, 2024 22:10:05 GMT -5
Other artists are on record as saying they received scripts from Stan during this era. Ditko said he didn’t write the stories he was doing. Jack never received a single script even during the period when he was freelancing? Despite the fact that they were still using inventory from their previous sci-fi books? I find that a little hard to believe. ^ That's to be ignored. The only recollections worth accepting are any supporting the anti-Lee, pro-Kirby myths. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 12, 2024 22:58:29 GMT -5
Where is this original artwork? It's a pic from Facebook, so don't know if it will show. Kirby's pencils lettering under the word balloons. From Amazing Adventures.  |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2024 23:13:09 GMT -5
Other artists are on record as saying they received scripts from Stan during this era. Ditko said he didn’t write the stories he was doing. Jack never received a single script even during the period when he was freelancing? Despite the fact that they were still using inventory from their previous sci-fi books?I find that a little hard to believe. It doesn’t diminish the greatness of Jack Kirby to suggest that he may have received a few plots or scripts during.his time, or received input from his editor, or even had someone script the captions and dialogue. Did somebody say that Stan didn’t write scripts for anybody? I don’t really see how that’s relevant anyway. And I’d like to see that Ditko quote where he said he didn’t do any of the writing. Is that exactly what he said? Or are you paraphrasing a little bit. I can very easily find a quote where Stan says that Steve would write the stories from a one-sentence description. I’d also like to see where anybody claimed that Jack Kirby never received a script. And even if he did receive a few scripts, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t doing quite a bit of the writing himself. And I think you’re wrong about the inventory. It was either used up or mostly used up pretty early on after Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did Strange Worlds #1. It’s also completely irrelevant. Just because there was inventory doesn’t mean that those stories were being assigned to Jack and Steve, unless you have some evidence for that. I think you should bite off your chunks a little bit smaller and give some attribution or quotes to back some of this up. And one other thing. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about a period of time. The process for creating the stories could’ve very easily changed over time. So if there’s a story from Stan and a story from Jack, and they don’t quite agree, one of them could be talking about something that happened in 1960, and another one could be talking about something that happened in 1963. So just because stories don’t quite match, it doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody is lying. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2024 23:29:14 GMT -5
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Post by commond on Jul 13, 2024 4:44:08 GMT -5
Where is this original artwork? It's a pic from Facebook, so don't know if it will show. Kirby's pencils lettering under the word balloons. From Amazing Adventures. Thank you for sharing the image. That's a little hard for me to read, but it doesn't appeared that the lettered dialogue matches the penciled dialogue. I'm only speculating here, but since Kirby was known to pencil in the word balloons while drawing the panels could it be suggest dialogue or a lose version of what was in the script? |
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Post by commond on Jul 13, 2024 4:51:47 GMT -5
Let’s not forget that in 1958 he was a freelance comic book artist in need of work, not some comic book god. A decade before he was a million selling creator. Goodman knew him as someone who could deliver a complete comic. Which he and Simon were doing when Stan was a gopher. At DC he wrote and drew the Challengers and revamped Green Arrow (which people tend to forget.) If not for that a$$hole Jack Schiff, he would have stayed at DC and there would be no MU. It's been asked before. What did Stan Lee create before he came up with all the ideas for the Marvel U? Did needing work somewhere diminish his creative strengths? I don't want to slight Kirby, but his career was a point in 1958-59 where he was forced to accept work from the guy who played the lowest page rates in the industry. To his credit, he was able to rebound from hard times in a way that not many creators of his generation could. |
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Post by commond on Jul 13, 2024 5:38:35 GMT -5
Other artists are on record as saying they received scripts from Stan during this era. Ditko said he didn’t write the stories he was doing. Jack never received a single script even during the period when he was freelancing? Despite the fact that they were still using inventory from their previous sci-fi books?I find that a little hard to believe. It doesn’t diminish the greatness of Jack Kirby to suggest that he may have received a few plots or scripts during.his time, or received input from his editor, or even had someone script the captions and dialogue. Did somebody say that Stan didn’t write scripts for anybody? I don’t really see how that’s relevant anyway. And I’d like to see that Ditko quote where he said he didn’t do any of the writing. Is that exactly what he said? Or are you paraphrasing a little bit. I can very easily find a quote where Stan says that Steve would write the stories from a one-sentence description. I’d also like to see where anybody claimed that Jack Kirby never received a script. And even if he did receive a few scripts, it doesn’t mean he wasn’t doing quite a bit of the writing himself. And I think you’re wrong about the inventory. It was either used up or mostly used up pretty early on after Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko did Strange Worlds #1. It’s also completely irrelevant. Just because there was inventory doesn’t mean that those stories were being assigned to Jack and Steve, unless you have some evidence for that. I think you should bite off your chunks a little bit smaller and give some attribution or quotes to back some of this up. And one other thing. Let’s not forget that we’re talking about a period of time. The process for creating the stories could’ve very easily changed over time. So if there’s a story from Stan and a story from Jack, and they don’t quite agree, one of them could be talking about something that happened in 1960, and another one could be talking about something that happened in 1963. So just because stories don’t quite match, it doesn’t necessarily mean that anybody is lying. Just a few posts ago, somebody was saying there was zero proof that Stan, Larry Lieber or anyone one else wrote full scripts for Jack. That was the comment I was replying to. The Ditko thing was from the Nick Caputo essay I linked to a few pages back. The only Ditko quote I can find at short notice describes his working method with Stan in 1961 and not his early work for Atlas: "In 1961 I was working with Stan Lee (writer/editor) at Marvel Comics in producing material (stories and art) for Amazing Adventures (which became Amazing Adult Fantasy). Briefly, in regards to our working method, Stan provided the plot ideas. There would be a discussion to clear up anything, consider options and so forth. I would then do the panel/page breakdowns, pencil the visual story continuity and, on a separate piece of paper, provide a very rough panel dialogue, merely as a guide for Stan. Stan would provide the finished dialogue for the character, ideas and consistency.” – — Steve Ditko “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man” essay from Avenging World (2002) My interest at the moment is post-implosion, pre-hero Atlas. This is what Joe Sinnott had to say about working at Atlas during the 50s: "I'd go down to the city on Friday, and Stan would give me a script to take home. I'd start on Monday morning by lettering the balloons in pencil. Then I'd pencil the story from the script and ink it and leave the balloons penciled. I'd pencil a page in the morning, and ink it in the afternoon ... I'd bring the story back on Friday and he'd give me another script. I never knew what kind of script I'd be getting. Stan had a big pile on his desk, and he used to write most of the stories himself in those days. You'd walk in, and he'd be banging away at his typewriter. He would finish a script and put it on the pile. Sometimes on his pile would be a western, then below it would be a science fiction, and a war story, and a romance. You never knew what you were getting, because he always took it off the top. And you were expected to do any type of story." (The Jack Kirby Collector 9 (1995))" In Alter Ego Vol 3, No 2 (1999), Larry Lieber said: "Stan made up the plot, and then he'd give it to me, and I'd write the script ... I was unsure of myself just sitting down to write a script. Since I knew how to draw, I'd think, 'Oh, this shot will have a guy coming this way... this shot we'll have a guy looking down on him,' and later I'd sit at the typewriter and type it up. After a while, I'd just go to the typewriter. I would follow from Stan's plots ... Jack I always had to send a full script to." This became a point of conjecture among Kirby fans for obvious reasons. Since there's no proof of any script, I believe Mark Evanier summed it up best: "As for who plotted the monster stories scripted by Larry Lieber, that’s one of those cases where Stan says one thing and Jack said another. Apparently, Jack would give Stan a lot of plot ideas and then Stan would select what he liked from the verbal pile. Based on talking with Stan, Jack, Larry, Don Heck, Sol Brodsky and Don Rico, I would say that Jack plotted some, Stan plotted some and a lot were Stan polishing a Jack idea. Then the whole thing was handed to Larry, who would write a script. And then Jack would fiddle a lot with the scripts.” Regarding inventory scripts, that is something that was mentioned by people far more familiar with Atlas than myself. In any event, they did recycle scripts as I've read a few myself in the books from 1958-60. As for your general statements, I'm not the one making any definitive statements about who did or didn't write the stories. I'm not sure why the burden of proof is meant to be on me. I have never said that anyone is lying. There are simply things that don't make sense to me in the Kirby/Lee debate. I'm sorry if this post didn't make a lot of sense but I have to go out to dinner. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 13, 2024 6:08:05 GMT -5
I was in the audience at SDCC when Larry Lieber talked about his Silver Age work at Atlas/Marvel. He said that he always produced a full script, even when he himself would be the penciller, working from a very brief plot suggestion from Stan, usually (but not always) based on his (Stan's) story conferences with Kirby and/or Ditko. Lieber was not prone to the self-aggrandizement his big brother indulged in: he was modest about his accomplishments and tended not to claim co-creator credit, even though his contributions included naming Tony Stark, Henry Pym, and Don Blake and coining the word "uru." He had no obvious motive to lie about his role in the formative years of the Marvel Universe.
Have any of those scripts turned up? No, but not because they never existed. Hard as it may be for fandom to accept, guys like Lieber had no sentimental attachment to their work and didn't retain it in hopes of enlightening future generations. Once a particular job was completed, it was on to the next one and the one after that and...
Cei-U!
(Probably not) nuff said!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 13, 2024 6:25:18 GMT -5
Thank you for your lengthy response, commond.
I’m sorry you find it so burdensome to support your assertions with facts and things. I think everyone should expect to take some time to find a source for their statements.
But now, I know exactly what I’m responding to, and I can take some time to look into it.
But my general response still stands. Just because somebody makes a statement about how they worked together in 1959 doesn’t mean they were working the same way in 1961 or 1964 or 1967.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 13, 2024 6:40:10 GMT -5
I was in the audience at SDCC when Larry Lieber talked about his Silver Age work at Atlas/Marvel. He said that he always produced a full script, even when he himself would be the penciller, working from a very brief plot suggestion from Stan, usually (but not always) based on his (Stan's) story conferences with Kirby and/or Ditko. Lieber was not prone to the self-aggrandizement his big brother indulged in: he was modest about his accomplishments and tended not to claim co-creator credit, even though his contributions included naming Tony Stark, Henry Pym, and Don Blake and coining the word "uru." He had no obvious motive to lie about his role in the formative years of the Marvel Universe. Have any of those scripts turned up? No, but not because they never existed. Hard as it may be for fandom to accept, guys like Lieber had no sentimental attachment to their work and didn't retain it in hopes of enlightening future generations. Once a particular job was completed, it was on to the next one and the one after that and... Cei-U!
(Probably not) nuff said!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. YES !!! |
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 13, 2024 6:49:20 GMT -5
Funny how it is assumed there are no facts (nevermind the numerous quotes posted) or someone is not telling the truth (again, nevermind the numerous quotes posted) if the information does not end with "Kirby and/or Ditko is God". What is revealing is their imagined "godhood" as comic book "writers" abruptly ended once they left 1960s Marvel. There's that process of elimination thingy again.
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