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Post by kirby101 on Jan 19, 2024 19:22:34 GMT -5
No Stan did not work for that money. Read "True Believer" if you want to see how little Stan did for that million a year. Stan was still being paid while he was working at Stan Lee Media and POW. And where was Kirby to get the money to go after Marvel while he was still trying to earn a living. Sounds like victim blaming to me. The fact that Marvel/Disney finally settled with the Kirby and Ditko families tells me they know Stan did not some up with everything on his own, as he claimed.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 19, 2024 22:26:25 GMT -5
No Stan did not work for that money. What person has ever worked enough to earn millions of dollars? But if your point is that Jack earned that million and Stan didn't, I don't think that holds much water. Look, I love Jack's work at DC in the 1970s, but it was a commercial failure. It didn't bring in the big bucks that DC anticipated. Jack, given complete creative control and virtually no restrictions, didn't make millions of dollars. So, regardless of whether or not Lee earned that money, his being in the mix certainly contributed to Marvel's success. As I said before, Stan was a hypeman; arguably the best comics ever had. Jack could churn out amazing works all day long, but Lee gave them characterization, brought them a loyal fanbase, and made Jack "King" Kirby a household name. It wasn't altruistic, and it doesn't mean Lee deserved to make millions nor to receive the level of credit he did, but it does mean it's not as simple as Jack and Steve being capable of launching a multi-million dollar comic book universe on their own with Lee doing nothing but stealing the acclaim and financial rewards. Like him or not, he played an important role in it all.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 19, 2024 22:29:25 GMT -5
And Walt Disney is still singlehandedly making films in 2024. I saw his name at the beginning. Not so fast skippy, Whatever a character morphs into, the person with the first concept and idea is the creator. So are we crediting Mary Roberts Rinehart for Batman and Victor Hugo for The Joker? Just checking.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 19, 2024 23:35:13 GMT -5
Ok... how's this... "I tend to take anything said by a guy who says he is a wizard with a grain of salt." I think it was in this interview, over 25 years ago, when I read what he meant by wizardry. I've taken him just as seriously ever since. George Khoury was the name I was trying to recall.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 19, 2024 23:48:25 GMT -5
Aside from the creative differences from Stan interfering with Jack's plots, if you ask me, Jack's later anger and resentment boiled down to the fact that Stan ended up making more money from the characters than Jack did. How about making no money compared to the millions Marvel paid Stan for characters Jack created. You write as if it is a small thing that Stan took all the credit for creating things he didn't. And greatly benefiting from that to the detriment of others. Stan was paid millions, not for the characters, but to be the face of Marvel, as he had been, since the 60s. Stan was used to schmooze with licensors and producers, to get media properties done. Stan was paid for what he did best: promote Marvel. Stan was the name in every comic and on the lecture circuit and the talk shows, before he ever appeared in a Marvel-based tv show or movie. To the outside world, Stan Lee WAS Marvel. That was why he was paid millions. Now, if you want to argue that some of those millions were to keep him from being a friendly witness in any lawsuits from people like Kirby and Ditko, or others, then I will say, yes, he was paid millions to stay with the company's POV. Along these lines, in Joe Simon's memoir, he talked of trying to exercise his claim to Captain America; but, ironically, it was Kirby siding with Marvel that killed his chances and made him give up any claim of ownership. That ended up biting Kirby in the tuchus, when his family tried to go after Marvel, as he had signed away any rights to Captain America. Simon had always maintained copyright on their creations, which is why Spyman, Lancelot Strong and the Fly belonged to them and not Harvey Comics or Archie Comics.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 19, 2024 23:52:09 GMT -5
And Walt Disney is still singlehandedly making films in 2024. I saw his name at the beginning. Not so fast skippy, Whatever a character morphs into, the person with the first concept and idea is the creator. Yeah, look what's happened since the first appearance of Adam and Eve.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 20, 2024 1:50:28 GMT -5
Thomas Edison is said to have invented the movie camera. Except he didn't, he stole it from the Lumiere Brothers. I find this the better analogy.
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Post by commond on Jan 20, 2024 5:02:03 GMT -5
No Stan did not work for that money. Read "True Believer" if you want to see how little Stan did for that million a year. Stan was still being paid while he was working at Stan Lee Media and POW. And where was Kirby to get the money to go after Marvel while he was still trying to earn a living. Sounds like victim blaming to me. The fact that Marvel/Disney finally settled with the Kirby and Ditko families tells me they know Stan did not some up with everything on his own, as he claimed. I'm fairly certain that the million dollars a year Lee received as Chairman Emeritus was after Kirby's death, but regardless of that, are you saying that after spending decades worth of his career working for Marvel that Lee wasn't entitled to that position? Is there any evidence to suggest that Kirby couldn't have had a job at Marvel for longer than he did? Couldn't he have easily filled an art director role the way Romita did? Jack clearly wasn't a company man. That's no reason to begrudge Lee for receiving a stipend because he played the company man for decades. I'm not saying Jack needed to pursue a lawsuit. I'm saying he could have done a lot more to put himself out there publicly. It was other people who pushed him to do the interview with Groth and others who fought for Marvel to return his artwork. Every time he crossed paths with Stan he would immediately make an effort to be congenial. Ditko could have been more vocal but chose to be a recluse. The fact is that everyone in the comic book industry were screwed over when the properties went on to earn millions of dollars, including Lee. The way people act you'd think that Lee owned Marvel and that he was a billionaire who made his money off the back of other people's hard work. Even when Lee sued Marvel, the 10 million he received was nothing compared to the revenue that the movies generated.
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Post by commond on Jan 20, 2024 5:10:55 GMT -5
Stan gave Kirby and Ditko writing credits while they were still on the books, but it wasn't enough to satisfy either man. Lee gave Ditko credits for plotting their collaborations on Doctor Strange and Amazing Spider-Man starting in 1965, I think. Did any credits ever acknowledge input into plotting from Kirby on any of his collaborations with Lee? The credit began "produced by Stan Lee and Jack Kirby." How they broke that down into page rate, I don't know.
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Post by commond on Jan 20, 2024 5:31:05 GMT -5
Some other points to consider:
If Jack was such a fine writer, then why did he leave DC because he was convinced that they wanted someone else to write with him or for him? If he hated Stan as much as claimed, why did he agree to return to Marvel and why did he reach out to Stan when he was unhappy with the editorial interference he faced?
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 20, 2024 8:35:46 GMT -5
Jim Shooter stated in one of his interviews that there were stacks of rejected Kirby pages in Lee's office. Lee insisted on certain story beats and particular storytelling in their book. Very key information; the fact Lee had so many rejected Kirby pages and guided the kind of stories written is the kind of information which shatters the anti-Lee narrative. Shooter--as opposed to fan/writers with agendas--would know, and his word should not be dismissed on so specific a topic. That's not what I would conclude from that evidence. I think it more strongly supports Kirby's contentions that he was writing the stories mostly independently, delivering them with his margin notes explaining to Stan what was happening, and Stan would dialog them starting with Kirby's plotted and drawn stories. It's not that Stan was dissatisfied with how Kirby had rendered the plot Stan had given Kirby, it was that Stan hadn't told Kirby what to draw but was then rejecting the plot that Kirby had created and drawn. That's the kind of thing that would lead to a very rotten working situation for Kirby. He was expected to plot and draw a story with minimal or zero direction, at the risk of what he spent all that time on being rejected and his having to still meet deadlines by supplying a different story, fully penciled...and he doesn't even get the pages back?! (And this also goes to the question of whether this really was "work for hire"; if my work needs revision, I should still get paid for the work done in the first place, they can't just tell me "we're not paying you for what you did on company time this week." Unless I'm not really a company employee and I'm taking the risk of independently creating material and offering it on the chance that they're willing to buy it from me.) We know of at least one incident where Kirby's story was rejected on the spot, and he ripped pages in half and threw them in the trash, that being an unused Hulk story rescued from the garbage by Larry Leiber. Nothing similar to the story being told in those pages ever appeared in HULK. If it was a plot Lee had directed Jack to draw, one would expect the story to be redone. Or if Lee had provided a plot that just didn't work, then Jack should have been paid something for dutifully rendering what he'd been assigned, even if Lee decided against it once he saw the pages. The only conclusion I can draw is that in this instance, at least, Stan simply decided the story was no good after Jack had come up with it and written it the only way he wrote: in pencils on the art board. If Lee did have a stack of rejected pages, that means Kirby would do his job, deliver the work, and later be informed that he had to start over, and he wouldn't be paid for the work he put in. If you're going to operate that way, a good editor should be giving ongoing direction to ensure that time wasn't wasted on non-viable work, not saying "bring me a fully plotted and fully drawn story, and I'll see if I like it once you're done."
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 20, 2024 9:53:19 GMT -5
You're making quite a leap from what Shooter said. Kirby and Lee worked about 11 years and I don't think there's any way that Kirby would have stayed that long if he was turning in fully completed books just to have them turned away to be done all over again. The accounts that I've heard support that Jack and Stan would have a quick discussion about the plot. Lee not knowing what was coming every month doesn't sound like him. The FF run is mainly heralded for the first 70 or so issues and I believe they worked more closely until after that period. Lee was in charge of Marvel comics and spread himself thin until people like Roy Thomas and Conway came along, but I think he was Jim Shooter before Jim Shooter came to be , albeit with a more fun personality. Like someone said earlier, none of us were there but we can put together a picture of what was more likely to have happened by accounts from the pros that interacted with them like Thomas and Romita.
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 20, 2024 10:21:37 GMT -5
You're making quite a leap from what Shooter said. Kirby and Lee worked about 11 years and I don't think there's any way that Kirby would have stayed that long if he was turning in fully completed books just to have them turned away to be done all over again. The accounts that I've heard support that Jack and Stan would have a quick discussion about the plot. Lee not knowing what was coming every month doesn't sound like him. The FF run is mainly heralded for the first 70 or so issues and I believe they worked more closely until after that period. Lee was in charge of Marvel comics and spread himself thin until people like Roy Thomas and Conway came along, but I think he was Jim Shooter before Jim Shooter came to be , albeit with a more fun personality. Like someone said earlier, none of us were there but we can put together a picture of what was more likely to have happened by accounts from the pros that interacted with them like Thomas and Romita. I'm not sure I follow what my leap is, unless you thought I meant that he was frequently turning in complete 20+ page stories that were rejected, which wasn't what I was meant to suggest (although I can see where my wording might have led someone to that interpretation). If there were indeed "stacks of rejected pages", though, it would have added up to a considerable amount of wasted effort on Kirby's part, that he was apparently not compensated for. And we can deduce that, as in the case of the Hulk story, there were several instances where at least significant portions of what Kirby submitted were chucked. For instance, the original Silver Surfer/Galactus trilogy appears to have been cobbled together by splitting several more cohesive stories, implying that some portions of surrounding stories were deleted: we get half of the Inhumans wrap-up, then half of the first Galactus story, then a full Galactus story, then another half of a Galactus story awkwardly combined with the start of a "Johnny goes to college" story. Throughout that arc, we can see a few instances of classic Kirby "final panel" scenes that fall in the middle of the printed issue, leading me to guess that a big piece of the Inhumans story was thrown out and the in-progress Galactus story was inserted ahead of schedule. And of course, the Galactus saga is the prime example where Lee is on record implying that Kirby was free-wheeling, as the Surfer, who is the focus of the first installment, came as a complete surprise to him. To confirm that I consider this a positive and productive discussion, I will admit that exploring this subject has me softening my opinions of Lee's contributions to the collaboration, although I continue to prefer Jack's own scripting to Lee's, and I think Jack's language, quirky and occasionally awkward though it could be, was more evocative and meaningful than Lee's breezier, playful, and more easily digested wordings.
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Post by Ozymandias on Jan 20, 2024 10:40:37 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain that the million dollars a year Lee received as Chairman Emeritus was after Kirby's death, but regardless of that, are you saying that after spending decades worth of his career working for Marvel that Lee wasn't entitled to that position? Is there any evidence to suggest that Kirby couldn't have had a job at Marvel for longer than he did? Couldn't he have easily filled an art director role the way Romita did? Jack clearly wasn't a company man. That's no reason to begrudge Lee for receiving a stipend because he played the company man for decades. [...] Even when Lee sued Marvel, the 10 million he received was nothing compared to the revenue that the movies generated. I neither think he got that position/money for his work as a representative nor the revenue generated trough movies should translate into more of a compensation for Lee than what he already got.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 20, 2024 11:45:31 GMT -5
Upon reading my post, I see that one of my sentences is not clear. The "stacks" of rejected pages are not all from Kirby. This anecdote is meant to demonstrate that Lee didn't just rubber stamp all work coming to the office . There were standards and if a story he was part of wasn't up to his standard, it was rejected. I remember Romita saying that Jack and Stan would talk and it seemed that no one was listening to the other while they were having plotting sessions , or they were talking past each other.
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