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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 20, 2024 12:53:07 GMT -5
Upon reading my post, I see that one of my sentences is not clear. The "stacks" of rejected pages are not all from Kirby. This anecdote is meant to demonstrate that Lee didn't just rubber stamp all work coming to the office . There were standards and if a story he was part of wasn't up to his standard, it was rejected. I remember Romita saying that Jack and Stan would talk and it seemed that no one was listening to the other while they were having plotting sessions , or they were talking past each other. OK, gotcha. It seems clear that Stan preferred to use the pages he got whenever he could, at least from the more reliable artists, probably because of practical constraints when redoing the pages would have jeopardized the schedule. Some of the most solid pieces of evidence against the notion that "Stan did nothing" are the many instances where his scripting re-wrote what the artist clearly intended. Sometimes that's glaringly obvious, as in the issue of HULK when Hulk gains the power of flight, which Stan unconvincingly describes as leaping; Kirby's story straight-up had Hulk gaining the power to fly like Superman. As soon as Kirby is onboard with Stan's decision that Hulk doesn't fly, he leaps, Kirby's art unmistakably depicts exactly that (and very effectively, I would say!). Whether Stan's editorial decisions to contradict the art or to insert undepicted explanations and backstory (e.g., I'm pretty sure Kirby would have included scenes of Victor Von Doom's mother if he had intended for mom to be established as a sorceress in the Dr. Doom origin) is debatable, but Stan was without a doubt imposing his own preferences via the script, even if he was working with whatever the artist submitted. For me, nowadays, that's a big part of the fun of looking back at these stories. When you can detach yourself from the ingrained notion that all these artists were working from explicit descriptions of what should happen, you can spot a lot of examples where the script and the art are not in synch, and deduce what the artist initially was trying to convey, and that's something you can't do with fully-scripted material that wasn't created via the "Marvel Method." For instance, I'm convinced that Bill Everett didn't have any intention of radioactivity-induced enhanced senses when he turned in his DAREDEVIL #1 pages; that was added in the scripting (and lettering). (And you can certainly argue that that detail was fundamental to the ultimate success of the character.) And if that, which we consider to be a key component of the Daredevil lore, wasn't present at the start, it gives more evidence that the artists, even at that stage, were plotting with very little direction, not from the kind of detailed description from Stan that we presumed, as fans of the line, was the case. When Stan came up with his stories of the initial development of these concepts, I don't think he imagined that readers of the future would ever be looking back over things like margin notes on the original art or deducing things from places where the script was inserting things that weren't being illustrated, and constructing plausible scenarios that conflicted with his media-friendly explanations. And it was, after all, a job for him, and one can't expect him to have retained exact memories of the creative process; a good story is more valuable in the hype world than a nuts-and-bolts description of what was, to most involved, a commercial product development, not a work of art that would one day merit a historian's attention and analysis.
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Post by tarkintino on Jan 20, 2024 12:58:35 GMT -5
No Stan did not work for that money. What person has ever worked enough to earn millions of dollars? But if your point is that Jack earned that million and Stan didn't, I don't think that holds much water. ...and certainly, Kirby would have turned that into a fortune anywhere else he worked, but... I will always cite Jim Warren's "Someone has to make it happen" in reference to Lee's creative input and leadership, which were talents not shared or replicated by Kirby or Ditko by any stretch of the imagination, or at any level their "Lee did not do anything" complaints would lead some to believe in an assessment of their status as comic book creators. I'm fairly certain that the million dollars a year Lee received as Chairman Emeritus was after Kirby's death, but regardless of that, are you saying that after spending decades worth of his career working for Marvel that Lee wasn't entitled to that position? Apparently not, as Lee is mischaracterized as some ruthless thief with sticky fingers, collecting all of the treasure while booting hapless "true" artists (bearing zero responsibility for the limits of their ability / career choices) into the poorhouse. Probably not. Romita was already a legend in that industry, still helping build the Marvel strength and aura, but he fit into the art director position like a hand in glove because he was not an egomaniac (one cannot underestimate how important not having that character trait is), and moreover, he--along with Lee, Dave Cockrum, Neal Adams, Dick Giordano and others--saw the growing potential of working and/or developing concepts for other IPs' licensing (not a surprise with many of these talents' advertising backgrounds) to a degree I'd say was beyond Kirby's work with Mattel, Ruby-Spears, etc. Being flexible of mind can lead to opening up greater opportunuties / exposure Remember, Lee is a ruthless thief. Nevermind he was the point man who set into motion expanding Marvel's IPs by selling them to TV and film producers, from Grantray-Lawrence, Hanna-Barbera and most fatefully, the relationship with Universal's Frank Price, who--through a number of talents--brought three Marvel characters to TV, most notably, the arguably best adaptation of the Hulk to date. So much of Marvel's visibility was due to Lee's vision, yet he was supposed to have been some sort of pauper for some inexplicable reason.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 13:38:34 GMT -5
Has anyone here said "Stan did not do anything". Or is that just another strawman? Kirby talked about the potential for comics into other media being worth billions in the 70s. No one said Stan wasn't a great salesman, no one said he wasn't superb at PR, especially when promoting himself. What we are talking about is how much input he had in creating these characters and comics.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 20, 2024 14:29:13 GMT -5
Has anyone here said "Stan did not do anything". Or is that just another strawman?...What we are talking about is how much input he had in creating these characters and comics. So are you saying Stan did have a part "in creating these characters and comics" or that he "didn't do anything"? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm honestly unclear where you are on this.
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Post by MWGallaher on Jan 20, 2024 16:14:57 GMT -5
Has anyone here said "Stan did not do anything". Or is that just another strawman? Kirby talked about the potential for comics into other media being worth billions in the 70s. No one said Stan wasn't a great salesman, no one said he wasn't superb at PR, especially when promoting himself. What we are talking about is how much input he had in creating these characters and comics. For the record, if anyway here has leaned in the "Stan did nothing" direction, it was me, so I hope you didn't think I was piling on with the mischaracterization of your point! Yes, it's a strawman, at least in this forum. I largely agree with you on this subject, but if I am right about Daredevil, one could certainly say that the inclusion of the radioactivity-induced superpowers was a significant input into the creating of that character, at the very least, even if it followed an initial round of "creation" by another writer. And I'll agree with the consensus that defining the individual voices of characters is a significant creative input.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 16:45:15 GMT -5
Has anyone here said "Stan did not do anything". Or is that just another strawman?...What we are talking about is how much input he had in creating these characters and comics. So are you saying Stan did have a part "in creating these characters and comics" or that he "didn't do anything"? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm honestly unclear where you are on this. There are two points here. Did Stan have a hand in the ongoing comics? Of course he did, the main debating points is how much of the plotting and story ideas were his. Certainly not all or most of them, as was the way it was portrayed.
The second is the creation of the characters. The main point here is Stan's claim is the initial idea for every one was his. That is patently false, and I would go so far as to say very few, if any, were his original idea. As opposed to all of them, as he claimed. Now we can have a discussion as to what constitutes the creation of a character. And I think we just have our own criteria. But when it comes to the initial idea of a character, Stan's claims of authorship are where he didn't tell the truth.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 16:48:02 GMT -5
So are you saying Stan did have a part "in creating these characters and comics" or that he "didn't do anything"? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm honestly unclear where you are on this. There are two points here. Did Stan have a hand in the ongoing comics? Of course he did, the main debating points is how much of the plotting and story ideas were his. Certainly not all or most of them, as was the way it was portrayed.
The second is the creation of the characters. The main point here is Stan's claim is the initial idea for every one was his. That is patently false, and I would go so far as to say very few, if any, were his original idea. As opposed to all of them, as he claimed. Now we can have a discussion as to what constitutes the creation of a character. And I think we just have our own criteria. But when it comes to the initial idea of a character, Stan's claims of authorship are where he didn't tell the truth.
I didn't see you saying Stan did nothing. I was mainly countering the use of it as a debating point. It has been used in quotes a few times, as if anybody is actually saying it. I don't see anyone who has.
What isn't addressed, or just cast aside as if it is a small thing is Stan's claim that he thought up everything.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 20, 2024 17:13:21 GMT -5
So are you saying Stan did have a part "in creating these characters and comics" or that he "didn't do anything"? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm honestly unclear where you are on this. There are two points here. Did Stan have a hand in the ongoing comics? Of course he did, the main debating points is how much of the plotting and story ideas were his. Certainly not all or most of them, as was the way it was portrayed.
The second is the creation of the characters. The main point here is Stan's claim is the initial idea for every one was his. That is patently false, and I would go so far as to say very few, if any, were his original idea. As opposed to all of them, as he claimed. Now we can have a discussion as to what constitutes the creation of a character. And I think we just have our own criteria. But when it comes to the initial idea of a character, Stan's claims of authorship are where he didn't tell the truth.
So you do agree that Stan had a part in the creation of these characters. Your point is that he took more credit than he earned? Because, if that's the case, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 17:39:25 GMT -5
Again, what is creation? Initially thinking up the concept? Or the development in the first or first few issues? Of course Stan had a hand in that. And I think we have to weigh each one differently depending on the book. My contention is Stan's false claim of authorship, that all the ideas were his.He took all the credit for the original ideas, and deserved none. This adversely affected the livelyhood of the artists. As did taking all the writing money. When others were plotting.
I give him full credit as an editor and PR man. Those were his strengths.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 20, 2024 18:05:18 GMT -5
Again, what is creation? Initially thinking up the concept? Or the development in the first or first few issues? Of course Stan had a hand in that. And I think we have to weigh each one differently depending on the book. My contention is Stan's false claim of authorship, that all the ideas were his.He took all the credit for the original ideas, and deserved none. This adversely affected the livelyhood of the artists. As did taking all the writing money. When others were plotting. I give him full credit as an editor and PR man. Those were his strengths. I don't think anyone in this discussion disagrees with you on any of these points beyond the "deserves none" bit. You concede he played a part, yet he deserves no credit at all?
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Post by commond on Jan 20, 2024 18:15:29 GMT -5
Kirby's claims about creating everything by himself were just as BS as Stan's. Kirby claimed that he never received a synopsis from Stan and that he never saw him write anything. He even went as far as to claim that other people did the scripting for him. Yet after Jack died, his family found numerous synopses in his house, including the synopsis for Avengers #4 and several Fantastic Four issues from the mid-60s. I believe the family gave these synopses to Mark Evanier but asked him not to publish them. Some have theorized that these weren't synopses but rather edits that Stan made. Frankly, it's Jack's word against Stan's and I don't know why people believe either of them.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 18:15:56 GMT -5
Credit for what? Did I say he deserved no credit for developing the characters.
I clearly and repeatedly stated that he claimed the original idea, the seed from which the characters sprang, the blank sheet which had nothing before he dreamed it. He does not deserve credit he claimed for that.
Show me where I said he deserved no credit for anything. I specifically and exactly say it is about the genesis of the concept of the characters.
It wasn't his wife telling him to do something bold, or seeing a fly on the wall, or remembering a comic strip about a magician. It was Kirby and Ditko and others bringing him the idea.
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 18:21:05 GMT -5
Kirby's claims about creating everything by himself were just as BS as Stan's. Kirby claimed that he never received a synopsis from Stan and that he never saw him write anything. He even went as far as to claim that other people did the scripting for him. Yet after Jack died, his family found numerous synopses in his house, including the synopsis for Avengers #4 and several Fantastic Four issues from the mid-60s. I believe the family gave these synopses to Mark Evanier but asked him not to publish them. Some have theorized that these weren't synopses but rather edits that Stan made. Frankly, it's Jack's word against Stan's and I don't know why people believe either of them. Because one has shown himself to be a serial teller of falsehoods. Kirby did not spend decades telling untrue tales about the comics. And other people did ghost write for Stan at times. This is well documented.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 20, 2024 18:30:32 GMT -5
I believe Stan came up with the Fantastic Four. Some people try to draw comparisons with the Challengers of the Unknown, but I don't see it. The character traits that the FF had made the book. Northing that I've read from Kirby to that point showed me that he was writing with the type of humor or personality. Don Heck drew the Avengers from 17 on and those books were infused with personality and chemistry between the characters. Again, nothing like that was shown by Kirby to that point.
I wonder what the theory about Dr. Doom is? Who came up with that idea?
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Post by kirby101 on Jan 20, 2024 18:30:34 GMT -5
I just read an interesting thing about FF 66 and 67. Kirby's story was about a group of scientists who wanted to create a being of pure logic, without emotion. It's said he was commenting about the ideas of Ayn Rand, I don't know if that part is true or if he interacted with Ditko. The story ends when the being Him sees his creator as flawed due to their emotions and destroys them. Stan thought it was all too high brow and philosophical for his readers, and changed it to Him destroying the scientists because they were evil. A much more by the numbers story.
If I can find the source for this, I will post it.
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