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Post by commond on Jun 19, 2024 15:55:07 GMT -5
We might have still gotten a Thor book. Kirby wasn't the first comic book creator to use Thor in a story. Thor and Loki had been used before in the Timely comic, Venus, and Ditko's Charlton Thor story is often credited as the missing link between Kirby's earlier Thor stories and the Journey into Mystery Thor. It's possible that Ditko or someone else could have created a Thor book for Marvel. I doubt it would have been as powerful and impactful as Kirby's Thor, but I think there's a greater chance that we get a Thor comic than The Fantastic Four or the Hulk. Since the Hulk is basically a riff on Jekyll and Hyde, The Fantastic Four stands out as the most original concept to me. As far as I'm concerned, The Thing is the second most iconic Marvel character after Spider-Man, though that has probably changed due to the MCU.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2024 15:58:20 GMT -5
I think there is a reasonable argument that there might not have been any Marvel superheroes without Kirby there.
Since the idea for a Thor book came from Kirby, I don't see a Thor book at Marvel without him.
No Kirby, no FF, and no following superheroes.
It was Kirby who pushed Goodman to revive Superheroes.
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Post by commond on Jun 19, 2024 16:28:09 GMT -5
They would have still done superheroes because that's the way the industry was shifting. What Kirby brought to the table were the things he was passionate about illustrating -- high-tech, science-fiction, space adventure type stuff. There's nothing to suggest that Spider-Man couldn't have existed without Jack Kirby. If a Kirby-less Marvel had still had a hit with Spider-Man, then inevitably you get other books. Would anyone have thought to do a Thor book? We'll never know, but Kirby didn't invent Thor. The character had been used before in comics, including in a story by the other creative force at the company.
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 19, 2024 18:30:02 GMT -5
Without Kirby, I suspect we'd have seen another revival of Captain America, Sub-Mariner, and the original Torch, perhaps as a team given Martin Goodman's request for a Justice League knock-off. Throw in Miss America or Blonde Phantom or Venus and maybe they would be the Fantastic Four. Even if Ditko got the art assignment, I doubt it would've done well enough to keep the already financially precarious Atlas line from folding by '63.
Cei-U!
I summon the idle, albeit informed, speculation!
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 19, 2024 20:17:15 GMT -5
I wonder if the Angel would have got some love? I always though he was the best golden age hero that Marvel never really went back to
Perhaps Maneely would have made Lorna the Jungle Queen into a super hero?
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 19, 2024 21:03:22 GMT -5
They would have still done superheroes because that's the way the industry was shifting. What Kirby brought to the table were the things he was passionate about illustrating -- high-tech, science-fiction, space adventure type stuff. There's nothing to suggest that Spider-Man couldn't have existed without Jack Kirby. If a Kirby-less Marvel had still had a hit with Spider-Man, then inevitably you get other books. Would anyone have thought to do a Thor book? We'll never know, but Kirby didn't invent Thor. The character had been used before in comics, including in a story by the other creative force at the company. What story are you talking about? It sounds like you’re implying that Stan Lee wrote a story with Thor. Which might be one of the stories in Venus #12 where a character called Thor appeared. But I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that Lee wrote it. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 19, 2024 21:29:45 GMT -5
Without Kirby, I suspect we'd have seen another revival of Captain America, Sub-Mariner, and the original Torch, perhaps as a team given Martin Goodman's request for a Justice League knock-off. Throw in Miss America or Blonde Phantom or Venus and maybe they would be the Fantastic Four. Even if Ditko got the art assignment, I doubt it would've done well enough to keep the already financially precarious Atlas line from folding by '63. Cei-U! I summon the idle, albeit informed, speculation!
My guess is that given the request for a Marvel version of the JLA, if Kirby hadn't been around they would have ended up with something that looked much more like a straight imitation of the DC superhero team - which means that instead of Thor they would have come up with a character more obviously along the lines of Superman. Unless, maybe, Ditko was given the job: there's no telling what he might have come up with. Probably not anything like Thor, though, as I don't recall him being particularly interested in mythological characters or stories.
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Post by berkley on Jun 19, 2024 21:38:06 GMT -5
Without Kirby, I suspect we'd have seen another revival of Captain America, Sub-Mariner, and the original Torch, perhaps as a team given Martin Goodman's request for a Justice League knock-off. Throw in Miss America or Blonde Phantom or Venus and maybe they would be the Fantastic Four. Even if Ditko got the art assignment, I doubt it would've done well enough to keep the already financially precarious Atlas line from folding by '63. Cei-U! I summon the idle, albeit informed, speculation!
My guess is that given the request for a Marvel version of the JLA, if Kirby hadn't been around they would have ended up with something that looked much more like a straight imitation of the DC superhero team - which means that instead of Thor they would have come up with a character more obviously along the lines of Superman. Unless, maybe, Ditko was given the job: there's no telling what he might have come up with. Probably not anything like Thor, though, as I don't recall him being particularly interested in mythological characters or stories.
I just had a look at that Hammer of Thor story Ditko did at Charlton: it feels like a one-off to me, but maybe I'm wrong, I certainly haven't read all of Ditko's Charlton stuff. But I still have the impression that mythology wasn't something he returned to regularly. I see him as more into magic and mediaeval type stuff but perhaps I've picked up an inaccurate impression through just having happened to see more of that kind of thing from him.
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Post by MWGallaher on Jun 19, 2024 21:46:31 GMT -5
Without Kirby, I suspect we'd have seen another revival of Captain America, Sub-Mariner, and the original Torch, perhaps as a team given Martin Goodman's request for a Justice League knock-off. Throw in Miss America or Blonde Phantom or Venus and maybe they would be the Fantastic Four. Even if Ditko got the art assignment, I doubt it would've done well enough to keep the already financially precarious Atlas line from folding by '63. Cei-U! I summon the idle, albeit informed, speculation! My guess is that given the request for a Marvel version of the JLA, if Kirby hadn't been around they would have ended up with something that looked much more like a straight imitation of the DC superhero team - which means that instead of Thor they would have come up with a character more obviously along the lines of Superman. Unless, maybe, Ditko was given the job: there's no telling what he might have come up with. Probably not anything like Thor, though, as I don't recall him being particularly interested in mythological characters or stories.
And they already had the components for a much more direct imitation of the JLA with their All-Winners Squad: The Whizzer is an obvious Flash counterpart. Miss America is a star-spangled heroine like Wonder Woman. Sub-Mariner matches up with Aquaman. Human Torch is a flying, special-effect-slinging substitute for Green Lantern. Captain America and Bucky are not only a Batman and Robin-like pairing, but Cap's blue & red with a prominent chest emblem and his status as a symbol of "The American Way" makes him the best available Marvel Superman, despite the difference in power levels (and nothing would be stopping them from amping Cap up to superhuman strength levels). If they wanted to go all the way there, they even had a green-skinned alien in their catalog, the original Vision, to recruit into the AWS for a Martian Manhunter equivalent! |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 19, 2024 22:53:45 GMT -5
I don't know if Goodman actually asked for a JLA book. The golf story is a total fabrication. Kirby was suggesting superheroes when he moved to Marvel. And FF is based on his hit book, Challengers. I think the success of that, the Flash and Green Lantern were bigger pushes for Goodman. As for Spider-Man, that started with Kirby bringing his Silver Spider idea in. Which was rejected and morphed into Spider-Man with Ditkp and Lee. So I don't know where this Spider-Man hit comes from without Kirby, or where Thor comes from. Certainly not Stan.
As others say, it would have been a revival of Gooan properties. And whether that would have worked? Who knows
Archie was still the best selling line, so maybe without Kirby, Goodman would have gone in that direction. Stan was more adept at teen books at that time anyway.
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Post by commond on Jun 20, 2024 3:35:47 GMT -5
They would have still done superheroes because that's the way the industry was shifting. What Kirby brought to the table were the things he was passionate about illustrating -- high-tech, science-fiction, space adventure type stuff. There's nothing to suggest that Spider-Man couldn't have existed without Jack Kirby. If a Kirby-less Marvel had still had a hit with Spider-Man, then inevitably you get other books. Would anyone have thought to do a Thor book? We'll never know, but Kirby didn't invent Thor. The character had been used before in comics, including in a story by the other creative force at the company. What story are you talking about? It sounds like you’re implying that Stan Lee wrote a story with Thor. Which might be one of the stories in Venus #12 where a character called Thor appeared. But I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that Lee wrote it. I was talking about Ditko's Charlton story, which may or may not have provided some of the elements for Marvel's Thor. There had been other early Thor stories too such as the Golden Age Thor from Fox's Weird Comics. None of these versions of Thor bore any similarity to Marvel's Thor, including Kirby's early work on the character, but there's been a lot said over the years about how Kirby was the only one learned enough to know about Norse mythology. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,213 
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Post by Confessor on Jun 20, 2024 6:56:05 GMT -5
Considering the FF was 90% Kirby plots and concepts, what other artist would do would be a totally different book. Exactly why I'm saying that only Kirby could've done that book. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 20, 2024 9:00:10 GMT -5
Considering the FF was 90% Kirby plots and concepts, what other artist would do would be a totally different book. Exactly why I'm saying that only Kirby could've done that book. Yeah, there would no more be a Woods FF than there would be a Kirby Thunder Agents.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 20, 2024 9:08:57 GMT -5
What story are you talking about? It sounds like you’re implying that Stan Lee wrote a story with Thor. Which might be one of the stories in Venus #12 where a character called Thor appeared. But I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that Lee wrote it. I was talking about Ditko's Charlton story, which may or may not have provided some of the elements for Marvel's Thor. There had been other early Thor stories too such as the Golden Age Thor from Fox's Weird Comics. None of these versions of Thor bore any similarity to Marvel's Thor, including Kirby's early work on the character, but there's been a lot said over the years about how Kirby was the only one learned enough to know about Norse mythology. That is quite an overstatement. What has been said is for those at Marcel at the time, and involved in the creation of Thor, it is quite obvious that Kirby was the one with the interest in mythology. We definitely never saw that from Stan (regardless of his "Origins" bullshit). Other creators in the field also had interest, Kubert, Gardner Fox, C.C. Beck.. But they weren't at Marvel when Thor became a comic, so there is still nothing to indicate that there would be a Thor comic there without Kirby. Ditko's creations usually went in a different direction. He was more a futurist and social commentator.
So I don't see any reason to believe there would be a Thor comic at Marvel without Kirby. Thor is very far from an inevitable idea for a superhero.
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Post by berkley on Jun 20, 2024 9:11:35 GMT -5
What story are you talking about? It sounds like you’re implying that Stan Lee wrote a story with Thor. Which might be one of the stories in Venus #12 where a character called Thor appeared. But I’ve never seen any convincing evidence that Lee wrote it. I was talking about Ditko's Charlton story, which may or may not have provided some of the elements for Marvel's Thor. There had been other early Thor stories too such as the Golden Age Thor from Fox's Weird Comics. None of these versions of Thor bore any similarity to Marvel's Thor, including Kirby's early work on the character, but there's been a lot said over the years about how Kirby was the only one learned enough to know about Norse mythology. The way I see, it isn't so much a question of Kirby being more learned, but rather that he was more interested in mythology and the like. This seems evident from his later work but I have no idea if it showed in his work before Marvel's Thor and Tales of Asgard.
Of course there were myth-based heroes and superheroes before Kirby but I don't think there was anything special about Thor in particular until Kirby made him a major Marvel character. It's entirely possible that someone else might have happened to think of him for Marvel's version of the JLA but I see no reason to think it would have Thor and not, say, Hercules.
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