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Post by commond on Jun 20, 2024 16:04:30 GMT -5
I was talking about Ditko's Charlton story, which may or may not have provided some of the elements for Marvel's Thor. There had been other early Thor stories too such as the Golden Age Thor from Fox's Weird Comics. None of these versions of Thor bore any similarity to Marvel's Thor, including Kirby's early work on the character, but there's been a lot said over the years about how Kirby was the only one learned enough to know about Norse mythology. The way I see, it isn't so much a question of Kirby being more learned, but rather that he was more interested in mythology and the like. This seems evident from his later work but I have no idea if it showed in his work before Marvel's Thor and Tales of Asgard.
Of course there were myth-based heroes and superheroes before Kirby but I don't think there was anything special about Thor in particular until Kirby made him a major Marvel character. It's entirely possible that someone else might have happened to think of him for Marvel's version of the JLA but I see no reason to think it would have Thor and not, say, Hercules.
I'm not saying it would have been anything special, or that it would have happened at all, just that's a Kirby-sized overstatement to say that there could never have been a Thor comic without the greatness of Jack Kirby. You can have a Thor book without Jack Kirby. In fact, I think you raise a very good point that it didn't really become anything special until Kirby took over the plotting. Journey into Mystery #83 featured the same aliens that Kirby had already used at both Marvel and DC, the most recent version of which had been called Thorr, as well as the recycled Donald Blake elements. I am fairly certain that without Kirby, Lieber doing full script could have churned a Thor script based on some Monster stories and Ditko's Thor story. It wouldn't be Kirby's Thor, and probably wouldn't have been any good or lasted, but it's a hop, skip and a jump compared to creating The Fantastic Four without Kirby. |
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Post by berkley on Jun 20, 2024 18:16:24 GMT -5
The way I see, it isn't so much a question of Kirby being more learned, but rather that he was more interested in mythology and the like. This seems evident from his later work but I have no idea if it showed in his work before Marvel's Thor and Tales of Asgard.
Of course there were myth-based heroes and superheroes before Kirby but I don't think there was anything special about Thor in particular until Kirby made him a major Marvel character. It's entirely possible that someone else might have happened to think of him for Marvel's version of the JLA but I see no reason to think it would have Thor and not, say, Hercules.
I'm not saying it would have been anything special, or that it would have happened at all, just that's a Kirby-sized overstatement to say that there could never have been a Thor comic without the greatness of Jack Kirby. You can have a Thor book without Jack Kirby. In fact, I think you raise a very good point that it didn't really become anything special until Kirby took over the plotting. Journey into Mystery #83 featured the same aliens that Kirby had already used at both Marvel and DC, the most recent version of which had been called Thorr, as well as the recycled Donald Blake elements. I am fairly certain that without Kirby, Lieber doing full script could have churned a Thor script based on some Monster stories and Ditko's Thor story. It wouldn't be Kirby's Thor, and probably wouldn't have been any good or lasted, but it's a hop, skip and a jump compared to creating The Fantastic Four without Kirby.
Sure, like I said, it was possible, but I don't think particularly probable since the other Marvel creators weren't particularly interested in mythology the way Kirby was. It has nothing to do with "the greatness of jack Kirby": he could have been interested in mythology and at the same time a crap creator with crap ideas, that would still make him more likely to create a Thor comic than a much better writer who wasn't interested in mythology.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 20, 2024 20:39:09 GMT -5
In think people have this misinformed idea. Most likely front the fabricated "golf game" story, that the Justice League sales made Goodman consider Superheroes. It wasn't, JL was a good seller, but far from a top book fo DC, it sold a fraction of the Superman titles and Batman. Goodman was open to things that could sell. He also considered closing the Marvel down. That is why they did the Kirby and Ditko monster books. Goodman could see in the late 50s that superman, Batman, the new Flash and GL, and even Kirby's Challengers were selling well. But he didn't move to do Superheroes then.
I don't understand the resistance to the idea that Goodman was listening to the man that gave him Captain America.
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Post by berkley on Jun 20, 2024 22:50:37 GMT -5
In think people have this misinformed idea. Most likely front the fabricated "golf game" story, that the Justice League sales made Goodman consider Superheroes. It wasn't, JL was a good seller, but far from a top book fo DC, it sold a fraction of the Superman titles and Batman. Goodman was open to things that could sell. He also considered closing the Marvel down. That is why they did the Kirby and Ditko monster books. Goodman could see in the late 50s that superman, Batman, the new Flash and GL, and even Kirby's Challengers were selling well. But he didn't move to do Superheroes then. I don't understand the resistance to the idea that Goodman was listening to the man that gave him Captain America. I never heard of the golf anecdote and to be honest the whole question of whose idea it was for Marvel to start making superhero comics in the early 1960s doesn't feel important to me. Whether Kirby made the suggestion or he just went along with or took advantage of someone else's decision, the important thing to me is what he did with superhero comics once that decision was made. |
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Post by commond on Jun 21, 2024 5:14:19 GMT -5
In think people have this misinformed idea. Most likely front the fabricated "golf game" story, that the Justice League sales made Goodman consider Superheroes. It wasn't, JL was a good seller, but far from a top book fo DC, it sold a fraction of the Superman titles and Batman. Goodman was open to things that could sell. He also considered closing the Marvel down. That is why they did the Kirby and Ditko monster books. Goodman could see in the late 50s that superman, Batman, the new Flash and GL, and even Kirby's Challengers were selling well. But he didn't move to do Superheroes then. I don't understand the resistance to the idea that Goodman was listening to the man that gave him Captain America. Based on postal data, Justice League of America was not only one of DC's best selling books from 1961-1967, but one of the best selling books on the market. 1961 -- 13th (335k) 1962 -- 11th (340k) 1963 -- no sales data 1964 -- no sales data 1965 -- 11th (389k) 1966 -- 10th (404k) 1967 -- 12th (385k) Sales then began dropping in 1968 -- 19th (315k) and 1969 -- 27th (233k) 1969, as mentioned before, was the year DC increased its cover price to 15 cents and suffered huge sales losses. Justice League of America didn't match the high sales of Batman and Superman, but it was their highest selling book outside of those characters. I have no doubt that Kirby was pushing Goodman to do superheroes since Kirby had been trying to do superheroes with Joe Simon at Archie, but I also have no doubt that it was the sales of JLA that Goodman cared about. The golf story may be an industry myth, but he knew about the sales somehow. I've read that it was through one of his contacts at his distributor, but however it transpired, Goodman liked jumping on the bandwagon and I don't think the influence of the JLA sales can be discredited. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 21, 2024 5:49:24 GMT -5
I feel like this discussion is taking away from the review of the Thor stories , but I will add this -Kirby was fired by Goodman during his Cap run when he and Simon were negotiating with DC. I don’t think he had the relationship to suggest anything to Goodman. He was primarily an artist for the company. Stan had Goodmans ear and any talks went between them.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2024 7:41:54 GMT -5
I feel like this discussion is taking away from the review of the Thor stories , but I will add this -Kirby was fired by Goodman during his Cap run when he and Simon were negotiating with DC. I don’t think he had the relationship to suggest anything to Goodman. He was primarily an artist for the company. Stan had Goodmans ear and any talks went between them. That is simply not true. Simon and Kirby were a team delivering hit books. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jun 21, 2024 7:55:56 GMT -5
I feel like this discussion is taking away from the review of the Thor stories , but I will add this -Kirby was fired by Goodman during his Cap run when he and Simon were negotiating with DC. I don’t think he had the relationship to suggest anything to Goodman. He was primarily an artist for the company. Stan had Goodmans ear and any talks went between them. That is simply not true. Simon and Kirby were a team delivering hit books. Which part isn't true? Simon & Kirby, then Timely's editor and art director respectively, were indeed secretly negotiating with DC after learning that Goodman was cheating them out of their contractually guaranteed share of the profits from Captain America Comics by charging the entire line's overhead to that single title. When Goodman learned of this (possibly from Stan Lee, though Stan always swore it wasn't him), he fired both men. Kirby came back to soon-to-be-Marvel reluctantly in the late '50s and avoided interacting with Goodman whenever possible. If it was indeed Kirby who suggested adding super-heroes to the company's line-up in '61 (and I'm not saying it wasn't), it was almost certainly Lee who actually pitched t to Goodman.
Cei-U! I summon the straight skinny!
And this discussion *is* taking away from the Thor reviews, so maybe it should be relocated to the "You Know, THAT Stan Lee Thread" thread if it's going to continue.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2024 7:59:35 GMT -5
In think people have this misinformed idea. Most likely front the fabricated "golf game" story, that the Justice League sales made Goodman consider Superheroes. It wasn't, JL was a good seller, but far from a top book fo DC, it sold a fraction of the Superman titles and Batman. Goodman was open to things that could sell. He also considered closing the Marvel down. That is why they did the Kirby and Ditko monster books. Goodman could see in the late 50s that superman, Batman, the new Flash and GL, and even Kirby's Challengers were selling well. But he didn't move to do Superheroes then. I don't understand the resistance to the idea that Goodman was listening to the man that gave him Captain America. Based on postal data, Justice League of America was not only one of DC's best selling books from 1961-1967, but one of the best selling books on the market. 1961 -- 13th (335k) 1962 -- 11th (340k) 1963 -- no sales data 1964 -- no sales data 1965 -- 11th (389k) 1966 -- 10th (404k) 1967 -- 12th (385k) Sales then began dropping in 1968 -- 19th (315k) and 1969 -- 27th (233k) 1969, as mentioned before, was the year DC increased its cover price to 15 cents and suffered huge sales losses. Justice League of America didn't match the high sales of Batman and Superman, but it was their highest selling book outside of those characters. I have no doubt that Kirby was pushing Goodman to do superheroes since Kirby had been trying to do superheroes with Joe Simon at Archie, but I also have no doubt that it was the sales of JLA that Goodman cared about. The golf story may be an industry myth, but he knew about the sales somehow. I've read that it was through one of his contacts at his distributor, but however it transpired, Goodman liked jumping on the bandwagon and I don't think the influence of the JLA sales can be discredited. The only year that matters is 1961. This is when Justice League sales supposedly got Goodman to start superheroes. It was the 9th or 10th seller for DC selling less than half of Superman, Far below any of the Superman family titles, or Batman. The idea that Goodman saw the sales of Justice League (debatable) and told Stan to do a group book is not supported. And Kirby's Challengers, even without Kirby, still outsold Justice league. Why Justice League? Flash had been selling in similar numbers for 5 years. And has been mentioned, if it was Justice League, he already had a group of Golden Age heroes he could have brought back.
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2024 8:03:22 GMT -5
That is simply not true. Simon and Kirby were a team delivering hit books. Which part isn't true? Simon & Kirby, then Timely's editor and art director respectively, were indeed secretly negotiating with DC after learning that Goodman was cheating them out of their contractually guaranteed share of the profits from Captain America Comics by charging the entire line's overhead to that single title. When Goodman learned of this (possibly from Stan Lee, though Stan always swore it wasn't him), he fired both men. Kirby came back to soon-to-be-Marvel reluctantly in the late '50s and avoided interacting with Goodman whenever possible. If it was indeed Kirby who suggested adding super-heroes to the company's line-up in '61 (and I'm not saying it wasn't), it was almost certainly Lee who actually pitched t to Goodman.
Cei-U! I summon the straight skinny!
And this discussion *is* taking away from the Thor reviews, so maybe it should be relocated to the "You Know, THAT Stan Lee Thread" thread if it's going to continue.
That Kirby was just an artist. Yes, Simon and Kirby left Timely over negotiations, but Simon and Kirby were a hit machine in the Golden Age. Their names were used to advertise new books to readers.
So okay, this hit one of my hot spots. Sorry.
On to Thor #127 with one of my favorite Kirby/Coletta splash pages.
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Post by commond on Jun 21, 2024 8:23:30 GMT -5
Based on postal data, Justice League of America was not only one of DC's best selling books from 1961-1967, but one of the best selling books on the market. 1961 -- 13th (335k) 1962 -- 11th (340k) 1963 -- no sales data 1964 -- no sales data 1965 -- 11th (389k) 1966 -- 10th (404k) 1967 -- 12th (385k) Sales then began dropping in 1968 -- 19th (315k) and 1969 -- 27th (233k) 1969, as mentioned before, was the year DC increased its cover price to 15 cents and suffered huge sales losses. Justice League of America didn't match the high sales of Batman and Superman, but it was their highest selling book outside of those characters. I have no doubt that Kirby was pushing Goodman to do superheroes since Kirby had been trying to do superheroes with Joe Simon at Archie, but I also have no doubt that it was the sales of JLA that Goodman cared about. The golf story may be an industry myth, but he knew about the sales somehow. I've read that it was through one of his contacts at his distributor, but however it transpired, Goodman liked jumping on the bandwagon and I don't think the influence of the JLA sales can be discredited. The only year that matters is 1961. This is when Justice League sales supposedly got Goodman to start superheroes. It was the 9th or 10th seller for DC selling less than half of Superman, Far below any of the Superman family titles, or Batman. The idea that Goodman saw the sales of Justice League (debatable) and told Stan to do a group book is not supported. And Kirby's Challengers, even without Kirby, still outsold Justice league. Why Justice League? Flash had been selling in similar numbers for 5 years. And has been mentioned, if it was Justice League, he already had a group of Golden Age heroes he could have brought back.
But even if it's 1961, it's still a hit book. It's the 13th best selling book of the year. Does that not constitute a hit book? It was outselling any character other than Superman and Batman, and it was a team book. As far as I know, Challengers of the Unknown did not outsell JLA in 1961. It was the 28th best selling book and doing 235k. Being the 9th or 10th seller for DC isn't a bad thing if DC is putting out the majority of the highest selling books. No-one will ever know who decided to do the Marvel Silver Age superhero books, but we can at least look at the data we have and draw conclusions. Why Justice League? Perhaps because kids realized they could buy a single book featuring all of their favorite heroes instead of buying each hero's individual book? |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Jun 21, 2024 9:50:30 GMT -5
And this discussion *is* taking away from the Thor reviews, so maybe it should be relocated to the "You Know, THAT Stan Lee Thread" thread if it's going to continue. Yeah, I agree. Let's put this discussion on hold for now, folks, and instead focus on Hoosier X and Icctrombone's reviews. If anybody does want to continue the Kirby-Goodman-Lee-JLA conversation, then, as Kurt says, the "You Know, THAT Stan Lee Thread" would be the place. |
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Post by kirby101 on Jun 21, 2024 10:54:43 GMT -5
answered in Stan Lee thread.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jun 21, 2024 14:37:29 GMT -5
If anyone wants to read Ditko's Thor, a five page story in Out of This World #11, apparently it's in the public domain and can be read here. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jun 21, 2024 17:10:43 GMT -5
THE MIGHTY THOR #127
April 1966 "The Hammer and the Holocaust!" Co-written and pencilled by Jack Kirby Co-written by Stan Lee Inked by Vince Colletta Lettered by Sam Rosen Edited by Stan Lee Well, last issue we saw Hercules and Thor fighting over Jane Foster, Battleground: Manhattan (mostly empty tenements slated for demolition. Odin (acting through his adviser Seidring) ordered that Thor's powers be cut in half, enabling Hercules to win the fight, leaving Thor in a red and blue in the street with his helmet on top like a cherry on a melting ice cream sundae. Hercules wanders away for new and exciting adventures, presumably involving beatniks. Everyone in the crowd follows Thor from the scene of the battle. Everyone except Jane. She tells Thor that she loves him and she will never leave him, even if Hercules whupped his ass in front of thousands of New Yorkers. But Thor rebuffs her. He has been beaten. He has been betrayed by his father (again!). And plus she was eating ice cream with Hercules and what was Thor supposed to do? Not beat somebody up? Thor strides away. Jane is about to follow him, but somebody gets hit by a car down the street and Thor has to fly him to a hospital. NO! WAIT! That's not what happens. Thor just walks away. Jane sees the accident and rushes over to help the injured man because she's a nurse, and she takes this very seriously! Meanwhile ... a new subplot! It's Hollywood! There's a new producer in town! He's eccentric and HIP! The support crew is getting one of the big sound stages ready for a new film version of Hercules! The wise-cracking studio workers are gossiping about this new producer. What a weirdo! And you should see his FACE! The new producer shows up at just this moment and tells them to get to back to work but he doesn't incinerate anybody or turn anybody into a newt. But I'm pretty sure he could do that and not worry about the consequences under the law. He calls himself PLUTO! And he really is the Pluto of mythology! But everybody thinks it's just a gimmick and he's just some Hollywood eccentric. It's the actual LORD OF HADES! And he is working on a VERY CUNNING PLAN! GOD I LOVE MARVEL UNIVERSE HOLLYWOOD! Getting back to the East Coast, Thor flies to a big ol' rock along the coast and takes a seat and ponders what is to become of him. Now we shift to Asgard. Odin regrets depriving Thor of his full power during the fight with Hercules. What madness came over him! Seidring says Odin was right! Justice must be done! It's such a great panel! Odin leaning over, a bit weary with grief. Seidring is in a corner, playing with the Odinpower he was given last issue. He sets his hand on fire and marvels at the wondrous things he can do. Odin has forgotten to take the Odinpower away. And it seems Seidring is getting a bit power-mad! We'll see how long this subplot goes on! When will Seidring strike? Odin has a mission for Seidring and ... OMG! SEIDRING ZAPS HIM AND KNOCKS DOWN! The guards come a-running, but it's no use!Seidring takes over Asgard with the power of Odin and freezes everybody into a statue. They got this subplot going pretty quick! As soon as Thor takes care of his problems on Earth, I guess he'll get to this in an issue or so. Oops! Nope! As luck would have it, Thor is at this very moment strolling up the Rainbow Bridge to have it out with Odin! He's like ... Hey! Why is Heimdall frozen in a block OF ETHEREAL FORCE!? Thor hurries to the throne room, finding various incapacitated Asgardian warriors along the way. He confronts Seidring and Thor is quickly surrounded by a room of flames. Seidring wants Thor to join him and rile Asgard alongside Seidring. Thor is like AS IF! Back to Hollywood we go! Pluto is entertaining the Queen of the Amazons! The REAL Queen of the Amazons. Sort of. I mean, she's not exactly Wonder Woman's mother. But she is the Queen of the Amazons in the Marvel Universe and she hates Hercules because he stole her girdle here too, so she's in on Pluto's plan. Which he rather helpfully now explains. PLUTO has a genuine OLYMPIAN PACT! You can't get out of it once you sign. Hercules will have no idea that he's signing an OLYMPIAN PACT when he comes to Hollywood and agrees to be in the Hercules movie and signs the agreement. He will think he's making a movie, but he'll actually be signing an agreement to become the LORD OF HADES! Meanwhile, back on Asgard, Seidring is grabbing some asteroids and aiming them at Thor! BOOM! And then Seidring traps him in some LIQUIFIED WOLFSBANE! SWISH! And then ... some more rocks! BOOM! BANG! BASH! Seidring is pretty sure of himself because he knows that Thor's powers have been cut in half. But Thor perseveres! And he comes up with a plan! He blinds Seidrning with a flash of lightning and rushes through the mighty halls to Odin's chambers! Where, tucked away in a corner next to the exercise equipment that Odin hasn't used for several hundred years ... THE ODINSWORD! Thor is going to draw the Odinsword and bring on Ragnarok! (It's kind of like ejecting the warp core, I think.) Seidring didn't expect this! Thor tells him to give up the Odinpower or Thor will bring on Ragnarok! Seidring wavers for a moment but he loses his nerve and gives up. Odin gets his power back, Seidring runs off down the hall and Thor collapses. Seidring just didn't have it in him to handle the Odinpower while the Odinsword was being unleashed. He should have gotten a little more experience as a super-villain before trying THAT on his first try. He should have started out by GETTING JANE FOSTER! That would give him a bit of an idea what he's up against. Odin grabs Thor as he's falling from the Odinsword and gives him a hug and carries him to the infirmary. He admits he was wrong and says he knows full well that Thor is the noblest Asgardian of all. COMMENTARY: Another great issue! Not as focused as last issue. But still great! A few things stick out. Hercules was not in this issue! He must be traveling incognito somewhere ... though I don't see how. Jane Foster disappears when she runs off to help the guy who got hit by a car. It's OK. She'll be back again soon with her own brand of bananashenanigans. I wonder what happened next? I always wonder what Jane is doing when she's not getting kidnapped or mind-wiped anymore. I still want to see a Jane Foster 1966 series. She's having lunch with her new roommate Tana Nile and they see the X-Men! Then there's some beatniks! Then she meets Janet van Dyne or Betty Brant in Central Park! I also noticed that, after only two appearances, Seidring was never a subplot! He was in the main plot in both stories! He was granted the Odinpower to remove Thor's powers in #126, and then he was the main threat in #127. TALES OF ASGARD: "THE MEANING OF RAGNAROK!": Oh this is a good one! The Asgardonauts have been called back to Asgard to hear the Volla the Prophetess as she foretells the dark day of Ragnarok. Frost and snow and eternal storm! The Forces of Evil! The destruction of Bifrost! Heimdall warns Asgard with his horn before he is overwhelmed by nasty trolls and things. Loki and Thor slay each other in battle! And then ... Jormangandr the Midgard Serpent. TO BE CONTINUED!
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