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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2024 11:05:42 GMT -5
Much the same experience here. For a long time I assumed that Pluto was the Roman counterpart of Hades, as Mars was of Ares, Juno of Hera, etc.
Graves's Greek Myths was an important book for me: like many young readers mesmerised by Tolkien, after reading his books I spent a few years of floundering around trying to find something along the same lines. I tried various Tolkien-derived fantasy books, some good some bad, but none of them really having anywhere near the same impact. Eventually I gravitated towards the mythology that had inspired him, which soon led me to Graves and his Greek Myths, and then Lattimore's English versions of the Iliad and the Odyssey.
I think you probably did read about Pluto in Graves, since if I remember he put the stories of the Olympian gods near the beginning of the first volume. I don't have my copy nearby to check if he talks about the names Pluto and Hades but I would imagine he did, perhaps in the notes. The annotations and his controversial interpretation of those stories were almost as fascinating as the stories themselves.
Pluton was another aspect and name of the Greek god Hades. Hades itself is actually the Latin spelling, whereas the Greek is "Haides" or "Aides" among other names/spellings, and he was the god of the underworld indeed. Pluton (or "Plouton") was a name given to his "giver of wealth" aspect. Plato indicates in his Cratylus work that people preferred calling him Pluton because Hades was the more dreaded name. And it can get confusing because then there's "Plutus" who is actually a completely different Greek god (a son of Demeter) who is also associated with wealth, and identifies closely with Pluton in that regard. But Pluto is indeed the Latinized form of Pluton, and generally speaking I think it is fair to say the common understanding that Pluto is basically the Roman version of the Greek Hades holds (the Etruscan/Roman god Orcus also having some association with Pluto). Yeah, except in the Thor comics, they basically equate Pluto/Hades with the Judeo-Christian Satan and that is not a true comparison in Greek mythology. Hades is no more figure of evil than Zeus or any of the other gods, aside from kidnapping Persephone. Lee and Kirby (and the rest) are no more guilty of it than others, who also want to use him as a stand-in for Lucifer. By the same token, the Underworld is not the equivalent of Hell. Tartarus would be, certainly, but the Underworld encompassed other regions, including the Elysium Fields, the reward of the virtuous. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2024 11:27:24 GMT -5
Pluton was another aspect and name of the Greek god Hades. Hades itself is actually the Latin spelling, whereas the Greek is "Haides" or "Aides" among other names/spellings, and he was the god of the underworld indeed. Pluton (or "Plouton") was a name given to his "giver of wealth" aspect. Plato indicates in his Cratylus work that people preferred calling him Pluton because Hades was the more dreaded name. And it can get confusing because then there's "Plutus" who is actually a completely different Greek god (a son of Demeter) who is also associated with wealth, and identifies closely with Pluton in that regard. But Pluto is indeed the Latinized form of Pluton, and generally speaking I think it is fair to say the common understanding that Pluto is basically the Roman version of the Greek Hades holds (the Etruscan/Roman god Orcus also having some association with Pluto). Yeah, except in the Thor comics, they basically equate Pluto/Hades with the Judeo-Christian Satan and that is not a true comparison in Greek mythology. Hades is no more figure of evil than Zeus or any of the other gods, aside from kidnapping Persephone. Lee and Kirby (and the rest) are no more guilty of it than others, who also want to use him as a stand-in for Lucifer. By the same token, the Underworld is not the equivalent of Hell. Tartarus would be, certainly, but the Underworld encompassed other regions, including the Elysium Fields, the reward of the virtuous. Yes, the Thor comics certainly do not always faithfully adapt the source mythology in this case and certainly others. That's a good callout. |
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Post by Calidore on Jul 10, 2024 14:02:08 GMT -5
And it can get confusing because then there's "Plutus" who is actually a completely different Greek god He's the one who kept fighting Popeye, right? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2024 14:29:19 GMT -5
And it can get confusing because then there's "Plutus" who is actually a completely different Greek god He's the one who kept fighting Popeye, right? Nice!  |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 10, 2024 17:20:50 GMT -5
I thought of this after I posted the review this morning. Thor and Hercules before and after the Netherworld invasion.   It's a nice bookend to the adventure. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 10, 2024 20:15:30 GMT -5
"My hammer swings only for justice-- never for the thrill of battle alone!"
"But what good then to be a god?"
"Thy careless query, Hercules, is far more profound than thou suspect!"
Cei-U!
I summon one of the best exchanges of dialogue Stan Lee ever penned (even if he kinda mangles the syntax in that last line)!
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,218 
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Post by Confessor on Jul 11, 2024 6:28:17 GMT -5
"My hammer swings only for justice-- never for the thrill of battle alone!" "But what good then to be a god?" "Thy careless query, Hercules, is far more profound than thou suspect!" Cei-U! I summon one of the best exchanges of dialogue Stan Lee ever penned (even if he kinda mangles the syntax in that last line)! It's an unfashionable opinion in some quarters, but I think there was a lot more philosophical depth in some of Stan Lee's writing than many people give him credit for. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 11, 2024 9:07:21 GMT -5
"My hammer swings only for justice-- never for the thrill of battle alone!" "But what good then to be a god?" "Thy careless query, Hercules, is far more profound than thou suspect!" Cei-U! I summon one of the best exchanges of dialogue Stan Lee ever penned (even if he kinda mangles the syntax in that last line)! It's an unfashionable opinion in some quarters, but I think there was a lot more philosophical depth in some of Stan Lee's writing than many people give him credit for. Are you saying that fans of Stan Lee are being bullied into silence ? His dialogue was integral to the success of his SA books. |
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Post by berkley on Jul 11, 2024 9:13:59 GMT -5
Pluton was another aspect and name of the Greek god Hades. Hades itself is actually the Latin spelling, whereas the Greek is "Haides" or "Aides" among other names/spellings, and he was the god of the underworld indeed. Pluton (or "Plouton") was a name given to his "giver of wealth" aspect. Plato indicates in his Cratylus work that people preferred calling him Pluton because Hades was the more dreaded name. And it can get confusing because then there's "Plutus" who is actually a completely different Greek god (a son of Demeter) who is also associated with wealth, and identifies closely with Pluton in that regard. But Pluto is indeed the Latinized form of Pluton, and generally speaking I think it is fair to say the common understanding that Pluto is basically the Roman version of the Greek Hades holds (the Etruscan/Roman god Orcus also having some association with Pluto). Yeah, except in the Thor comics, they basically equate Pluto/Hades with the Judeo-Christian Satan and that is not a true comparison in Greek mythology. Hades is no more figure of evil than Zeus or any of the other gods, aside from kidnapping Persephone. Lee and Kirby (and the rest) are no more guilty of it than others, who also want to use him as a stand-in for Lucifer. By the same token, the Underworld is not the equivalent of Hell. Tartarus would be, certainly, but the Underworld encompassed other regions, including the Elysium Fields, the reward of the virtuous. To further complicate things, I was reminded today that there is an actual Roman god that was equated with Pluto/Hades in a similar way to how Mars was with Ares, Juno with Hera, etc: the god Dis. I've been reading the Tempest the last few days and just came across this bit: "...since they did plot/The means that dusky Dis my daughter got," (IV.1.88-89) spoken by Ceres, the Roman goddess identified with Demeter. I see that according to wiki, Dis was also identified with the Orcus mentioned by supercat, though they appear to have been separate entities originally).
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Post by kirby101 on Jul 11, 2024 10:05:50 GMT -5
Stop already with the strawmen. Nobody from our group here is saying Stan could not write dialog. (yes, there is one poster whose only interest in Stan Lee, but not our core group)
My first post from the Stan Lee thread
I thought we weren't bringing that debate here?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2024 10:09:27 GMT -5
Yeah, except in the Thor comics, they basically equate Pluto/Hades with the Judeo-Christian Satan and that is not a true comparison in Greek mythology. Hades is no more figure of evil than Zeus or any of the other gods, aside from kidnapping Persephone. Lee and Kirby (and the rest) are no more guilty of it than others, who also want to use him as a stand-in for Lucifer. By the same token, the Underworld is not the equivalent of Hell. Tartarus would be, certainly, but the Underworld encompassed other regions, including the Elysium Fields, the reward of the virtuous. To further complicate things, I was reminded today that there is an actual Roman god that was equated with Pluto/Hades in a similar way to how Mars was with Ares, Juno with Hera, etc: the god Dis. I've been reading the Tempest the last few days and just came across this bit: "...since they did plot/The means that dusky Dis my daughter got," (IV.1.88-89) spoken by Ceres, the Roman goddess identified with Demeter. I see that according to wiki, Dis was also identified with the Orcus mentioned by supercat, though they appear to have been separate entities originally).
Yeah, that's another good related callout, I had skipped over Dis (or "Dis Pater") as he did become identified with Orcus who in turn became associated with Pluto, but another example where similar themed deities evolved/merged over time. So in the Tempest while it's generally considered Dis was being used as another name for Pluto, how he acquired that other name goes back to the earlier myth you mentioned. |
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 11, 2024 10:18:03 GMT -5
I think one of the elements that elevates this run of Thor is the dialogue. Those panels with the cabbie are great. And we’re coming up on the segment where Tana Nile is walking around New York, telling everyone that she is now the Empress Tana I and all the New Yorkers are being real sarcastic and snarky with her, and she doesn’t realize it.
And very soon will be getting to some really great dialogue from the likes of The Recorder and Ego.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 11, 2024 10:22:51 GMT -5
I think one of the elements that elevates this run of Thor is the dialogue. Those panels with the cabbie are great. And we’re coming up on the segment where Tana Nile is walking around New York, telling everyone that she is now the Empress Tana I and all the New Yorkers are being real sarcastic and snarky with her, and she doesn’t realize it. And very soon will be getting to some really great dialogue from the likes of The Recorder and Ego. I'm purposely reading the issues only when I have to review them. The Tana Nile stuff is gonna be great. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Jul 11, 2024 11:51:10 GMT -5
From "Trial of the Gods" through the end of the original Mangog story arc is the pinnacle of the Lee-Kirby collaboration on Thor. I've unloaded a lot of my Silver Age books over the last few years but if anyone wants this run they'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands.
Cei-U!
I summon the cream of the crop!
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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 12, 2024 22:29:21 GMT -5
The Mighty Thor # 130 This is another one that's really focused. One of the better issues of the run, right up there with #126. I don't want to say too much about it. Mr. Trombone has already reviewed it extensively and, really, it's better to experience it by reading it! Talking about the comics of the 1960s without reading Thor from Journey into Mystery #114 to Thor #140 or so is like talking about Japanese Cinema without watching Yojimbo. Briefly, Thor takes on the hordes of Hades to save Hercules the Prince of Meat-Heads from eternal damnation as the King of HELL! We then check in on GET JANE FOSTER!, which has taken a new direction this season. Rising star Tana Nile flips the script a little by HYPMOTIZING Jane Foster and telling her to GET LOST! When Thor returns, HE'LL be playing GET JANE FOSTER! But she'll have gone to the ends of the Earth and Thor will never be able to find her because she's so far away in ... The Hamptons! Way out on Long Island! Probably on her way to Montauk Point. I love Tana Nile! She's great! And her little drama gets better and better! But we'll have to wait until the next issue to see how that plays out. Meanwhile, back in Hell, Thor beats up some more armored Hell-Minions and wrecks a cosmic cannon and outmaneuvers the Turbulence Trap and pummels the Crusher. And finally, Pluto says "NO!" He has spent many years decorating Hell and getting it just the way he likes it and now Thor has turned it into a ravaged wasteland in a matter of minutes. Pluto seems to have developed a certain affection for the place. Pluto tears up the contract with Hercules as he decides he's not quite ready to retire to Florida just yet. Now Hercules and Thor are BEST FRIENDS and they wander into the sunset. THE END In Tales of Asgard, Thor, Fandral, Volstagg and Hogun beat up some guys and knock out Harokin and Thor dresses like Harokin and wears a wig and they prepare to steal the Warlock's Eye. That's pretty much it. I forgot to mention that Tana Nile, in an earlier scene, was lounging around and reading a book about The Greek Myths. Does she have a library card already? Did she just pick it up from Jane's book shelf? Do the Colonizers offer access to some inter-galactic lending library? For some reason, I'm really curious about where she got that book. |
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