shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 3, 2024 19:01:38 GMT -5
![](https://i.imgur.com/turkelU.jpeg) Artists as editors, new titles and genres, drastic rebrands of classic characters, social relevance, 100 page spectaculars, and even Jack Kirby! George and Jeff are joined by special guest Ed O'Toole (" Prince Hal" as most know him) to explore DC's wild adolescent growth spurt after decades of business as usual. Listen on Podbeanor on Youtube(as always, an extra special THANKS to our patreon supporters: Slam_Bradley , zaku , MDG , MWGallaher , thwhtguardian, and berkley!) patreon.com/TheClassicComicsForum
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 4, 2024 8:11:26 GMT -5
Great show, as usual, and it's wonderful to hear from Prince Hal, or rather my namesake, Ed (such a quality name, and you hide it behind that pseudonym... ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) ). And that is a really interesting topic - I'm fond that whole period from the mid-'60s onward (into the 1970s) fascinating, because so much cool stuff was happening in comics, and it's cool to hear from someone who was witnessing it as it was happening. Otherwise, just a few random thoughts: when Ed mentioned Irene Vartanoff, it reminded me that she has rather recently written a trilogy of tongue-in-cheek books called Temporary Superheroine, Crisis at Comicon and Hollywood Superheroine, all of which lovingly poke fun at superhero comics, the comics industry and fandom. Also, the short-lived late '70s series Starfire is technically sword and planet rather than sword & sorcery, and yes, it was a victim of the implosion. It's also a series which I loved probably more than it deserved (if you ever want to talk about it, I'm your man).
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 4, 2024 9:25:14 GMT -5
Also, the short-lived late '70s series Starfire is technically sword and planet Not to be confused with Sword IN Planet. ![](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Star-Trek-Mirror-Universe-Prime-Universe-Spock.jpg)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 4, 2024 11:22:52 GMT -5
- I didn't expect Prince Hal to make an appearance. What a great surprise!
- I pronounced Carmine "Car-mee-nay" for many, many years so don't feel bad, Jeff! (I did pronounce "carbine" correctly, though. I just assumed that the guy would use a more Italian-sounding pronunciation).
- Shakespeare in comics! Yay! When I eventually got to read the Bard's original (untranslated) works, I was amazed to recognize a ton of phrases that had been used in American comic-books. I was a little shocked that "When Titans Clash" wasn't on the list!
- On the subject of double-page spreads, I remember that there was always one in the Warlord comics I managed to find. They looked great, but in a 17-page book it meant a shorter story! Luckily, comics weren't written for the trade in those days and we still got a decent amount of dialogue.
- It took 40 minutes before Skippy was mentioned! I was beginning to worry!
- You guys made me regret not being around for that particular era... Creeper, New Gods, Enemy Ace; there was a lot of variety in DC comics in those days. I only got to experience that a few years later, through the Artima French translations.
- Agreed on comics having a lot more story content back then. It's not necessarily a fault, as the art is nowadays extremely impressive, but yeah... few comics today require half an hour of free time (unless it's an Alan Moore one with 20 extra pages of notes!)
- Just a few years ago I bought several comics with the title logo clipped off the cover. Unfortunately they were 2 bucks instead of a nickel!
- I'm curious about the Kamandi/Planet of the Apes thing. Wiki says this : Considering the similarities (talking animals, mute humans, post-atomic holocaust setting), it strikes me as very plausible.
- Infantino certainly oversaw a lot of diversification in DC's line. Respect.
Great discussion, people! Thanks to the three of you!
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Post by commond on Mar 4, 2024 17:48:26 GMT -5
Another fun episode. Inspired me to finally read Bat Lash.
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Post by commond on Mar 4, 2024 18:07:34 GMT -5
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 4, 2024 19:20:21 GMT -5
- It took 40 minutes before Skippy was mentioned! I was beginning to worry! Ye of little faith... Me too, actually. Considering that Kirby couldn't even do a 2001 A Space Odyssey adaptation without totally making it his own, I personally find it hard to believe that he didn't see his Kamandi concept as original and entirely his. Infantino may well have asked for a knock-off, but what Kirby gave him was something that was the product of his own imagination, despite some basic similarities. He may have had his faults as a creator (George sure pointed out the writing aspect!) but Kirby's certainly never came up shy on concepts. Thank YOU!
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,639
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Post by shaxper on Mar 4, 2024 19:21:29 GMT -5
Another fun episode. Inspired me to finally read Bat Lash. What a visual treat! it was my first time reading it as well.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 5, 2024 8:13:40 GMT -5
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 5, 2024 22:29:54 GMT -5
shaxper , it isn't that I think everything Saladino did was meh. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) Here's my report card: A: Swamp Thing; Beware the Creeper; Sgt. Rock (So perfect I'd've thought Ira Schnapp designed them.) B+: House of Mystery (Attention-grabber when it first appeared on HoM 174 and never lost its appeal. Points off for using lettering like every other horror comic since I started riding a trike.) B: Brother Power, the Geek (The out-of-touch weirdness is the point.) Unexpected (derivative, but I get that DC was probably trying to unify the mystery titles and the ghostly figure was a nice touch.) C-: Batman (This logo, which vanished as of Batman 212 -- except for a few more issues of B and B -- actually conveys mood and mystery...) Green Lantern (Rip-off of the Golden Age GL's logo, but with a Gil Kane GL instead of a lantern in the middle. Talk to me before I post this, and it might be a gentleman's D-) D: Angel and the Ape (Compare this harsh angular mess to the unfussy original, which better captured the humorous style of that book when it was... humorous.) Detective (A seeming attempt to link the two primary Batman titles makes the Batman logo look inspired by comparison.) Teen Titans (Generic. Looks like a bland block-letter Silver Age Marvel logo.) Spectre (Went to the mystery lettering well one time too many while also trying to appear psychedelic. DC's unhip slip is showing again. The original was eerily perfect...) Incomplete: Aquaman (The jagged rock formation is Cardy's, right? And I won't blame Gaspar for the atrocious corner lettering, which IIRC, which at the last minute because some higher-up (I hope it wasn't Giordano) in authority was panicky that no one would recognize what comic it was on the racks or on the newsstands. I think it may have been done by that infamous Charlton letterer, A. Machine.)
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 5, 2024 22:38:35 GMT -5
Great show, as usual, and it's wonderful to hear from Prince Hal, or rather my namesake, Ed (such a quality name, and you hide it behind that pseudonym... ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) ). And that is a really interesting topic - I'm fond that whole period from the mid-'60s onward (into the 1970s) fascinating, because so much cool stuff was happening in comics, and it's cool to hear from someone who was witnessing it as it was happening. Otherwise, just a few random thoughts: when Ed mentioned Irene Vartanoff, it reminded me that she has rather recently written a trilogy of tongue-in-cheek books called Temporary Superheroine, Crisis at Comicon and Hollywood Superheroine, all of which lovingly poke fun at superhero comics, the comics industry and fandom. Also, the short-lived late '70s series Starfire is technically sword and planet rather than sword & sorcery, and yes, it was a victim of the implosion. It's also a series which I loved probably more than it deserved (if you ever want to talk about it, I'm your man). Thank you, my fellow Irishman (O'Bosnar?) ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) Glad you enjoyed the podcast. Two Eds are better than one, of course, but I didn't want to steal your thunder. I'm not one for Ed to Ed competition. I will have to look into those Vartanoff volumes. She was one of the regular letterhacks (Mark Evanier; Guy Lillian III; Martin Pasko, Peter Sanderson and so many others) who helped to educate younger readers like myself in the ways of the comic book. The Silver Age letter columns were invaluable resources.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 6, 2024 3:53:16 GMT -5
Thank you, my fellow Irishman (O'Bosnar?) ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) (...) No, unlike you, the current president and that O'Bama fella who was president a while back, I'm not Irish - I get that a lot, though.
That's mighty big of you, but I wouldn't mind. Sometimes it's lonely being the Ed of the class, trying to keep my Ed above the water all by my lonesome. They're quite fun - mostly light and very breezy. I wrote brief reviews of them (the first two together and then the third one) at another site.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,639
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Post by shaxper on Mar 6, 2024 12:59:42 GMT -5
C-: Batman (This logo, which vanished as of Batman 212 -- except for a few more issues of B and B -- actually conveys mood and mystery...) I agree that I like the shadowy Batman figure from Schnapp's logo, but the lettering always felt a bit childish to me. Saladino gives it a sleek elegance more fitting of the Caped Crusader. Ironically, Saladino goes on to add figures to several of his logos, even while removing Schnapp's here. One should never get rid of Schnapps. It's delightful. ![](https://www.kroger.com/product/images/large/front/0008800403376) You say "rip-off," and I say "homage". This one is cleaner and more precise, and I love GL at the center, running towards you, ring extended. This one is an absolute classic that knees me in the nostalgia nuts every time I see it. I think you mean the "utterly indistinct, generic original" ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) I love the throwback framing image, but not the lettering itself. I like it, but I'll agree that it's a tad bland. Bah humbug. Oh, I really hope you're mistaken, as it's the first thing I think of when I hear Saladino's name. GCD credits the cover "art" to Cardy and the "lettering" to Saladino, so I'm not sure where one ends and the other begins, here.
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Post by MDG on Mar 7, 2024 14:31:59 GMT -5
I listened this morning.
This late-silver/early-bronze is probably my favorite period of DC (and, coinciding with the underground explosion, a favorite period in comics). It seems a lot different to folks looking back on it, with DC (and Marvel, to some extent) "throwing stuff at the wall" without a lot sticking. Remember, though, both companies thought superheroes were coming to the end of their current cycle and looking for the "next thing." Ironically, they didn't recognize that the new fans basically wanted what Marvel was serving up: as many superheroes as you can cram into a panel.
And while the big NYC (and other cons) were starting up, they were attended by older fans who focused on Golden Age, EC, etc., and didn't always think much of current comics. They were also big on the pulps, which Carmine tried to capitalize on with the Shadow, Justice Inc., and letting Denny O'Neil try his hand at one or two prose stories.
I don't think I heard, though, Carmine's story about how he got the Art Director role: to hear him tell it, he got permission to attend one of the meetings with all of the editors and brought with him alternative mock-ups of all of the covers he didn't work on that month.The editors agreed that his designs were better and that he should be designing all of DC's covers.
In terms of Kirby and Marvel's "bad art": As mentioned, DC's editors were script-first guys and expected artists to draw what was written slickly and realistically (or as realistically as possible, given things like giant beings swinging comets at each other by the tail). And then Adams came in and "raised the bar" for everyone. This made Kirby's work seem even more out of step with what was going on. He didn't even have Sinnott to provide the polish he gave the FF. So while Carmine determines credit for bringing him in, he was probably hearing Kirby's work badmouthed by everyone around him--while Kirby's out in California! (Add in the fact that Kirby was about 10 years ahead of what everyone was doing--maybe he should've had DC put triangles with numbers in them on the covers of New Gods, Mr Miracle, and Forever People so readers would know what order they went in.)
Ironically, Marvel's art, though still Kirby influenced, was slicked up, especially Spider-Man which lost all of Ditko's quirkiness.
I don't think you can discount, in this period, Joe Orlando's success in showing that there was a healthy market for well-done horror anthologies--after House of Mystery was revamped and House of Secrets relaunched, they had healthy runs and led to additional new and revived titles that pretty much ran through most of the 70s, usually with much better-looking covers and interior art than the superhero books.
On the new title designs by Saladino--I run hot and cold on them. Some I like, some, not so much. Some of Schnapp's work was starting to look anachronistic by the late 60s, and Saladino was talented, but he didn;t have Schnapp's overall sense of design.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 7, 2024 15:08:52 GMT -5
MDG said: I don't think I heard, though, Carmine's story about how he got the Art Director role: to hear him tell it, he got permission to attend one of the meetings with all of the editors and brought with him alternative mock-ups of all of the covers he didn't work on that month.The editors agreed that his designs were better and that he should be designing all of DC's covers.
I'd never heard or read that (or if I did, I'd forgotten), but I'm sure that's correct. So glad you're mentioning it here. I'm guessing, since Donenfeld was so up on which covers seemed to sell, that he would have convened that meeting and that whether they agreed or not, the editors would have had to accept what the boss said. And yes, Orlando not only started the revived horror line at DC, he did it before the code changed in 1971 or so. House of Mystery went back to horror (or what passed for it), with #174, with the famous cover attributed to some combination of Infantino and Orlando. Besides giving readers another genre to enjoy, those books served as a training ground for many young artists and writers. As a fan, I never got the feeling that DC was desperate during what was really a DC Explosion, even if they were. I just looked at it as an exciting time with all kinds of well drawn and written new comics on the stands. That made the sudden disappearances of many of them that much more disappointing. As for Kirby at DC, I loved his art, but never much cared for either Colletta or Royer, two quite opposite ends of the inking spectrum. Though, I'd give the edge to Royer for the power and rawness he released in Kirby's raw and powerful pencils. Still, I longed for the polished touch that Sinnott brought to Kirby, too, especially to the non-action scenes and moments. Still, it was always Kirby burning like a furnace in those Fourth World titles no matter the inker. And I agree, too, that it was Marvel around this time that was becoming more of a house-style company than DC ever really was. Competent, but formulaic. I'm looking at you, Sal Buscema. Let the bombardment begin. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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