Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Mar 16, 2024 16:47:58 GMT -5
This may sound weird, but bear with me.
I think the series still comes out, but instead of the New X-Men, it's The Champions.
Let's say that the X-Men reprints aren't selling quite well enough to justify using the brand to launch a new book -- it will be a negative, rather than a positive, to call the book The X-Men.
There are several things going on at Marvel that are still happening even if we take the X-Men brand off the board:
1st, the concept of a multi-national superhero team has been floated, so Marvel wants to do that.
2nd, assuming the 1st is correct, Wolverine is created for this purpose.
3rd, Dave Cockrum has quit DC, reportedly over a conflict regarding original art, and come to Marvel looking for work. He's popular and has a following from DC, so Marvel wants to find him a book.
4th, Cockrum already has the character designs for Storm, Colossus, and Nightcrawler among others, that were supposed to eventually be new Legionnaires.
5th, Chris Claremont is looking for an ongoing title - he's been getting work here and there and is ready to make the jump to a bigger book, even if Marvel isn't ready to put him on one of their current bestselling titles.
6th, Marvel wants to get more team books out in general.
So let's put these together:
In the real world, Tony Isabella pitched a buddy road trip book with former X-Men Angel and Iceman, but EiC Len Wein apparently wanted a team book, so he forced Isabella to add some arbitrary team members - supposedly a woman, a strong man, and someone with their own title. David Anthony Kraft comes up with the title "The Champions" but it became a book with no actual concept, just a collection of random characters.
In our hypothetical world, though, where the New X-Men didn't happen we have all the ingredients: a concept (international team of heroes), a group of characters (Wolverine, Storm, Colossus, and Wolverine), and a new hungry creative team (Dave Cockrum and Chris Claremont) all ready to be matched with a team book title (The Champions) in need of all those things.
There is still one thing missing, though. Wein wants a member who has their own title. Black Panther makes sense for the book's concept, and potentially to act as team leader. And it also makes sense for Claremont to bring in Captain Britain: he's international, and Claremont is writing Captain Britain at the time. As we know, he eventually did just this with Excalibur.
So there it is: The Champions by Claremont and Cockrum, with a lineup of Black Panther, Captain Britain, Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, and Colossus.
We know that Claremont likes to write strong women. Frankly, there aren't a lot of good options yet in 1975; by 1977 Claremont is writing Ms. Marvel, so that makes sense, but for the book's launch it's slim pickings. It's possible he's able to bring in Jean Grey since the X-Men would be dormant at this point, and the team lacks an American member. Or it's possible that he and Cockrum use one of Cockrum's other unused Legionnaire designs to make another new female superhero for the book.
Either way, I think the book is a hit, but I doubt it reaches the same heights as The X-Men eventually did.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 16, 2024 19:46:48 GMT -5
Wolverine exists, either way. The idea of an international team was to help sell Marvel abroad; so, without X-Men, Avengers easily becomes more international in line-up, or a new team is introduced to be that international group. Who knows where Claremont ends up or Cockrum or Byrne. The artists were gonna liven up whatever they touched and did; so, they are still favored artists, maybe on another series.
One thing to keep in mind, in regards to the success of the revived X-Men was the space subplot, involving Lilandra and the Shi'ar. It was a mix of Star Trek, Star Wars and old fashioned space opera. Star Trek is hugely popular, in sydication, at the time, plus the animated series. Star Wars is coming up and becoming more high profile, heading into 1976 and 1977, between propudction and post-production and marketing. X-Men rode that wave, as the climax of the Shi'ar story coincided with the release of the film and the Marvel adaptation and continuation. So, anyone that puts an emphasis on space opera benefits from that, whether it is the Avengers in space, the FF, the Champions, the Defenders, or Cub Scout Troop 96, who battle aliens and get their universe saving merit badge.
Wolverine, Banshee and Sunfire might end up in whatever international team that is formed. Whether Wolverine becomes a favored character and future star depends on who writes him and what happens. Byrne in Claremont, in cooperation and contention built a broader foundation for him, then Frank Miller added more, in the mini-series. If Wolverine never ends up in Japan, does the idea of him being a failed samurai ever come up?
Claremont is going to want to write his usual suffering women; does he kink up Avengers, with Scarlet Witch, Wasp and/or Black Widow? Does Ms Marvel get new leather duds and a whole lot of mental anguish? Does the Hellfire Club turn up there or does Black Widow get to face them?
The X-Men were still poking around, making guest appearances; so, they might have been tried again, with the right new team.
My real question is, who gets stuck with all of the Alien story swipes, down the road?
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 16, 2024 20:01:07 GMT -5
I feel like New Teen Titans was pretty critical for superheroes during that time as well, Wolfman has said they weren't influenced by X-Men. Wolfman's full of crap. If the X-Men reboot hadn't worked, DC would never have greenlit the Titans reboot.
Cei-U! I call bulls#!t!
That's a little harsh, don't you think? Sure, DC would never have done it if it hadn't been for X-Men's success; but, that doesn't suppose Wolfman only did it because of X-Men's success. He was a fan. X-Men certainly informed his approach and probably more than a little his new characters and use of Beast Boy, as Changeling; but, Wondy, Kid Flash and Robin were pretty much as they were, minus the stupid Teen Titans dialogue, which I doubt Marv wanted, anyway. I suspect he always wanted to take a crack at the Titans, given his earlier involvement and X-Men smoothed the way and he went with that, though the dynamic wasn't that different, in the old series, apart from the usual DC faults. Given Marv's Marvel work, his approach was likely to be similar to Claremont's, as he was following the same template as Claremont, which was Stan and Roy, after him. Likely the same for Perez and his input, with touches of Perez's time on Avengers. I don't think Wolfman is outright lying, but may have been thinking along similar lines and even unconsciously absorbed some of what Claremont was doing, if not deliberately. Possibly not at first, until he started undertaking developing the new characters, since about half of his team was established and he could now write them the way he always wanted them written. I'd say a little from Column A (Wolfman didn't set out to mimic X-Men) and a little from Column B (he was noting what was working there, as he developed the new characters and subplots). |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2024 21:11:33 GMT -5
Well, Wolfman's exact words were "You know, a lot of fans at the time thought we were copying the X-Men. I kept saying, 'No, we are not copying the X-Men.' I was not an X-Men fan. I said we were copying the Fantastic Four."
I'm not sure why he would make that up, while the relaunched X-Men was a big success, it wasn't entirely the most original idea to mix up a team's membership. I mean, the Avengers did that early on by booting out the original team with only Cap remaining, and would go through many transformations over the years. The 70's X-Men was just a really captivating example of a rebooted team.
I think Perez had a good perspective on how X-Men fueled interest in New Teen Titans though: "If the X-Men hadn’t been popular, Lord knows if the Titans would have. We got a lot of the X-Men audience initially, just to see what everybody’s talking about with 'DC’s X-Men'".
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 17, 2024 12:22:50 GMT -5
Well, Wolfman's exact words were "You know, a lot of fans at the time thought we were copying the X-Men. I kept saying, 'No, we are not copying the X-Men.' I was not an X-Men fan. I said we were copying the Fantastic Four." I'm not sure why he would make that up, while the relaunched X-Men was a big success, it wasn't entirely the most original idea to mix up a team's membership. I mean, the Avengers did that early on by booting out the original team with only Cap remaining, and would go through many transformations over the years. The 70's X-Men was just a really captivating example of a rebooted team. I think Perez had a good perspective on how X-Men fueled interest in New Teen Titans though: "If the X-Men hadn’t been popular, Lord knows if the Titans would have. We got a lot of the X-Men audience initially, just to see what everybody’s talking about with 'DC’s X-Men'". The thing is, one of the strength's of the X-Men was that it was as much a family, as a team, which fits in with the FF. So, you have a similar family dynamic, as well as a team dynamic. You also have the "freak" element" that Ben had, and Nightcrawler shared, because of his appearance, not to mention other mutants. There is definitely a lot of Ben Grimm in Cyborg and you could argue a lot of Johnny Storm in Starfire. Wolfman's characterization of Wonder Girl shares some attributes with Sue Storm. Kid Flash, as he became a bit more reactionary, absorbed a bit of Johnny Storm, too. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 17, 2024 17:58:32 GMT -5
It may have been answered but would Madelyn Pryor no longer exist? Would Wolverine not go through the numerous changes ? Madelyne was specifically created to give Scott (the best and most interesting X-Man ever) a happy ending while simultaneously doing a sequel/not sequel to the Dark Phoenix saga... so I think it's fair to say that Madelyne would never have seen the light of day if that particular story hadn't happened. Wolverine, being far less popular without the benefit of playing off the new X-Men during his formative years, would not have needed to be retconned all the time to keep him "mysterious". He probably would have remained an obnoxious five foot nothing bruiser, and would have been killed for slight shock value in an issue of Marvel Team-up, to show what a badass someone like the Grizzly or El Tigre really was. I think that we were all better off with the new -Men!  |
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 17, 2024 18:02:16 GMT -5
Well, Wolfman's exact words were "You know, a lot of fans at the time thought we were copying the X-Men. I kept saying, 'No, we are not copying the X-Men.' I was not an X-Men fan. There would be no reason to copy something so uninspiring and still come up with The New Teen Titans which easily surpassed the X-Men as the premiere superhero group / drama title. |
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Post by commond on Mar 17, 2024 18:07:40 GMT -5
I'm fairly certain that Claremont ends up writing The Fantastic Four. According to DeFalco, Claremont had always harbored a desire to write the FF and was offered the job when he was ousted from the X-Men.
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Post by aaronstack on Mar 18, 2024 4:04:25 GMT -5
Scott (the best and most interesting X-Man ever) LOL |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Mar 18, 2024 4:11:15 GMT -5
(...) Scott (the best and most interesting X-Man ever) QFT |
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Post by tonebone on Mar 18, 2024 9:01:33 GMT -5
When I see what X-Men has become today, I wish it had never been revived. Today, it's like one of those insects who have been infiltrated by a zombie fungus.
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Post by MDG on Mar 18, 2024 10:51:49 GMT -5
When I see what X-Men has become today, I wish it had never been revived. Today, it's like one of those insects who have been infiltrated by a zombie fungus. I think I agree.
My problem is that Claremont's X-Men became the model for "good" comics, which came to mean endless storylines and subplots, and a lot of telling, not showing.
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 19, 2024 5:26:34 GMT -5
If the X-Men were never revived in the 70s, some other superhero team would have been created where ancient comic fans can years later lament about.
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Post by jason on Mar 19, 2024 11:44:19 GMT -5
We likely still get Dazzler, since it was supposed to be a tie in to an album/movie, but she probably wont be a mutant (maybe she'll have different powers or maybe no powers and she's just tech-based).
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 19, 2024 13:15:24 GMT -5
(reposting since I put this in the wrong thread)
I think there are lots of dominos, some potentially big.
-Neither Byrne nor Claremont have the precipitous rise to dominance as hot creators. Both may gain popularity, but X-Men was lightning in a bottle that supercharged their trajectories and doesn't happen in other circumstances even if they work together on a book
-Marvel lacks the sales juggernaut from the expansion of the title into a brand that fuels a lot of their success in the late 80s and 90s. Without the cash cow that is the X-brand the the licensing bonanza around the '92 X-Men animated series, Toy Biz never becomes a major player, Marvel doesn't have that huge initial stock offering, never has the capital to acquire trading card companies and especially a distributor, so the distributor wars never happen changing the landscape of the direct market into I don't know what.
-most of the Image founders never have the vehicle to launch their careers on a trajectory where Image is a possibility and a success, so the "Image revolution" probably never happens
-without X-Men line sales, Marvel may not have the ammo to stave off DC's growth in the market during the DC Renaissance, but alternately, without Marvel being a sales juggernaut does DC go the route it did with Crisis to be more like Marvel?
-without the X-Men sales fueling growth and acquisitions, does Marvel go into bankruptcy in the late 90s? It has no X-brand to sell to Fox to help it emerge from bankruptcy if it does. Without X-Men movie does the superhero movie bonanza of the 21st century happen? Is there even an MCU if they don't have to rely on Iron Man to launch Marvel Studios because they sold off their other options to emerge form bankruptcy? Is Marvel as a whole even big enough to gain any traction in the film and animation industries without X-Men fueling their financial growth through the 80s and 90s. It's not like without X-Men all those sales would just go to other properties. The X-books were what brought a lot of people to the table in the 90s and kept people at the table through the 80s and 90s when they would have left comics behind without them.
Like or dislike the X-Men, it's hard to argue against the idea that that brand became the cornerstone of Marvel's success and growth through the 80s and 90s making the Marvel brand juggernaut it has become today. I mean there was a period of about a decade where Diamond (before and after the distributor wars) measured the sales of all comics against X-Men sales as the norm (the X-Men sales number each month was X, all other titles were described in terms of a fraction of X or (only very, very rarely) a multiple of X because X-Men were the default best selling book in the American market regularly for a extended period of years.
So no X-revival in the 70s isn't just about what books or characters may or may not have happened, it would have created a massive vacuum in the comics industry as a whole that would have seismically shifted the course of the industry over the next 35+ years. It was in many ways, the thing that allowed the direct market to stave of sales entropy for so long, so without that source of revenue how long did the direct market as we know it survive? did it even get to the point where super-hero movies and television become a thing in the 21st century? I mean the 1989 Batman movie created a huge, but fleeting surge, but the steady sales success of X-Men as comics and as merch sustained the industry for a good 2 decades and was the rising tide that lifted a lot of the other ships, whether you liked the books or not.
-M
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