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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 26, 2024 21:26:02 GMT -5
Alright, I was wrong, both Bob and Stygian Dogs were reacting to another youtuber's list (Grammticus Books) that I am not familair with.
-M
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 26, 2024 22:12:19 GMT -5
I'll say after watching some of these lists, there's a lot of great movies mentioned, but I wouldn't call some of them sword & sorcery. But then I make a sharp distinction between sword & sorcery and high or epic fantasy, a line that most of them blur.
-M
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Post by driver1980 on Mar 27, 2024 6:42:58 GMT -5
I'll say after watching some of these lists, there's a lot of great movies mentioned, but I wouldn't call some of them sword & sorcery. But then I make a sharp distinction between sword & sorcery and high or epic fantasy, a line that most of them blur. -M How would you define Masters of the Universe? Incidentally, I don’t know if there is any truth that Conan figures were repurposed as MOTU figures. One documentary I saw suggested that story was apocryphal, but I am sure some ( Wizard, perhaps?) stated it as fact.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 27, 2024 10:51:28 GMT -5
I'll say after watching some of these lists, there's a lot of great movies mentioned, but I wouldn't call some of them sword & sorcery. But then I make a sharp distinction between sword & sorcery and high or epic fantasy, a line that most of them blur. -M How would you define Masters of the Universe? Incidentally, I don’t know if there is any truth that Conan figures were repurposed as MOTU figures. One documentary I saw suggested that story was apocryphal, but I am sure some ( Wizard, perhaps?) stated it as fact. I've not watched a lot of the Filmation stuff or the movie. I saw the 1st season of the most recent Netflix series, so I am hardly an expert on MOTU. I do have the big omnibus edition collecting all the early comic (mini comics from the toys etc.). But from what I have seen, I would put MOTU in the science fantasy category with elements of planetary romance and a few S&S trappings. Part of what defines S&S is the themes, which tend to run darker, and the horrific elements that define the worlds. Skeletor is a nod to those horrific elements for sure, but isn't actually horrific, and the ships and tech used create that science fantasy vibe. I know S&S was influential on the designs of the characters, and I totally see that, but those are trappings not the core of the story content, which doesn't have the same thematic underpinnings that define S&S. -M
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2024 11:26:23 GMT -5
There was a brief attempt at a sword & sorcery franchise, on NBC tv, in the early 80s; but, they only ended up doing the first film: Archer, Fugitive From the Empire. Itwas a pilot for a fantasy series, though I recall an article that ran in our local paper tv listings that said it was supposed to be a series of telemovies. Ironically, that was also suppsed to be the structure for Battlestar Galactica; but, they went with a weekly one-hour series, instead, with a telemovie debut. Nicholas Corea, the writer, director and creator was a big fantasy lit fan and he incorporated a lot of classic features. The hero is the son of the leader of a nomadic people, who has united various clans. They are a threat to an empire and its agents murder the high chief and frame the son, after father and son had a dispute, before the other chiefs. The son escapes, with the help of a friend, who has a powerful bow, with mystical qualities. The hero ends up in possession of it and aids a sorceress in escaping her death and, if memory serves, a thief, who befriends him. The enemy is a general, with a humanoid serpent clan of warriors, who have terrorized the land. They go seeking a powerful wizard, called Lazar-Sa. The hero is Toren, plade by Lane Caudell, who appeared on Days of Our Lives. George Kennedy was Brakus, the high chief. The sorceress, Estra, was played by Belinda Bauer, who was the doomed girlfriend in the Airwolf movie pilot and Dr Faxx, in Robocop 2. Victor Campos was the thief, Slant, who befriends Toren and joins his quest. The villain, Gar, was played by Indian actor Kabir Bedi, best known in the West for playing Gobinda, the henchman of Kamal Khan, in the Bond film, Octopussy. Bedi was great, as the villain Gar, clad in reinforced leather armor, with helmet and facemask. He is wounded, at one point, by Toren and removes the facemask and appears without it for the rest of the film. Prior to that, you mostly saw only his eyes. Richard Moll has a minor role as a ferryman. I don't believe he transported Chris Debergh to the other side, though. It was a pretty good effort, from a story standpoint, though some dodgy acting. Bauer was never particularly good in anything, other than she was beautiful and could play sexy. She just never demonstrated much of an emotional range (though her parts rarely called for that, either). Kennedy chews scenery and wasn't the best choice for a barbarian chief; but, he's a fine actor and he handles it well. The other chiefs were primarily tv character actors. Bedi is the glue that held it together, as he gives the best performance and really inhabits his character. he also plays it with the right tone, never seeming self conscious about it, like some of the other actors. The serpent warriors had pretty good makeup pieces and looked suitably icky and scary and they had them emerge from the ground, which was nightmarish. The bow would fire magical arrows, which would lead to a sort of red flash effect, with people falling in slow motion. It worked well enough. I liked it, with its faults, but a series didn't follow. It did get a theatrical run in parts of Europe and it is apparently popular in Germany. It did get a VHS release, in the US. It would make for a great comic book series, in keeping with our other thread, about fictional characters not adapted in comics.
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Post by berkley on Mar 27, 2024 12:49:32 GMT -5
There was a brief attempt at a sword & sorcery franchise, on NBC tv, in the early 80s; but, they only ended up doing the first film: Archer, Fugitive From the Empire. Itwas a pilot for a fantasy series, though I recall an article that ran in our local paper tv listings that said it was supposed to be a series of telemovies. Ironically, that was also suppsed to be the structure for Battlestar Galactica; but, they went with a weekly one-hour series, instead, with a telemovie debut. Nicholas Corea, the writer, director and creator was a big fantasy lit fan and he incorporated a lot of classic features. The hero is the son of the leader of a nomadic people, who has united various clans. They are a threat to an empire and its agents murder the high chief and frame the son, after father and son had a dispute, before the other chiefs. The son escapes, with the help of a friend, who has a powerful bow, with mystical qualities. The hero ends up in possession of it and aids a sorceress in escaping her death and, if memory serves, a thief, who befriends him. The enemy is a general, with a humanoid serpent clan of warriors, who have terrorized the land. They go seeking a powerful wizard, called Lazar-Sa. The hero is Toren, plade by Lane Caudell, who appeared on Days of Our Lives. George Kennedy was Brakus, the high chief. The sorceress, Estra, was played by Belinda Bauer, who was the doomed girlfriend in the Airwolf movie pilot and Dr Faxx, in Robocop 2. Victor Campos was the thief, Slant, who befriends Toren and joins his quest. The villain, Gar, was played by Indian actor Kabir Bedi, best known in the West for playing Gobinda, the henchman of Kamal Khan, in the Bond film, Octopussy. Bedi was great, as the villain Gar, clad in reinforced leather armor, with helmet and facemask. He is wounded, at one point, by Toren and removes the facemask and appears without it for the rest of the film. Prior to that, you mostly saw only his eyes. Richard Moll has a minor role as a ferryman. I don't believe he transported Chris Debergh to the other side, though. It was a pretty good effort, from a story standpoint, though some dodgy acting. Bauer was never particularly good in anything, other than she was beautiful and could play sexy. She just never demonstrated much of an emotional range (though her parts rarely called for that, either). Kennedy chews scenery and wasn't the best choice for a barbarian chief; but, he's a fine actor and he handles it well. The other chiefs were primarily tv character actors. Bedi is the glue that held it together, as he gives the best performance and really inhabits his character. he also plays it with the right tone, never seeming self conscious about it, like some of the other actors. The serpent warriors had pretty good makeup pieces and looked suitably icky and scary and they had them emerge from the ground, which was nightmarish. The bow would fire magical arrows, which would lead to a sort of red flash effect, with people falling in slow motion. It worked well enough. I liked it, with its faults, but a series didn't follow. It did get a theatrical run in parts of Europe and it is apparently popular in Germany. It did get a VHS release, in the US. It would make for a great comic book series, in keeping with our other thread, about fictional characters not adapted in comics.
First I've ever heard or seen of this one. I think it looks pretty good. I certainly would have been a regular viewer at the time if it had ever become a series.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2024 15:01:17 GMT -5
Here is a French trailer for it.....
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Post by tonebone on Mar 27, 2024 20:02:27 GMT -5
I never had much of an appreciation for Conan, until the past few years, when I bought a bunch of the Dark Horse "Essential" style phonebooks of Savage Sword material... and now I LOVE the character, and have gone back and bought the Epic Collections of the Marvel color stuff. I am amazed at how Roy Thomas really brought him to life (along with BWS and Buscema) on the page without compromising his character. In the introduction to the KULL omnibus, Thomas mentions that in Conan, he never uses thought bubbles, or sound effects... I thought that was pretty cool, and did serve to set those tales apart from the rest of the Marvel universe.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 27, 2024 20:05:14 GMT -5
What do we call the film Krull? It's got a lot of Sword & Sorcery trappings, but equally it has plenty of sci-fi elements. Yet I'm not sure it's really Planetary Romance.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 27, 2024 20:30:03 GMT -5
What do we call the film Krull? It's got a lot of Sword & Sorcery trappings, but equally it has plenty of sci-fi elements. Yet I'm not sure it's really Planetary Romance. A lot of people put it in the S&S category, I lean towards putting it under science fantasy, or swords & science (which is where I put things like Gil Kane's Blackmark, Talos of the Wilderness Sea, and stuff like the 70s DC Starfire series. Swords & science has similar DNA to sword & sorcery in terms of its themes and trappings, but also has a bit more of the trappings of sci-fi. But I tend to put swords & science and swords & soul (pioneered by Charles Saunders) as sub-genres of sword & sorcery rather than standalone genres, so when I see stuff in those mentioned as being sword & sorcery, I don't blink. Krull might fit there, but it leans a little harder into the sci-fi elements, which is why I tend to go with science fantasy for it (for those who question what that is-it's essentially stories with sci-fi trappings that lean towards elements of fantasy rather than extrapolating from actual science which is what the core of science fiction is. I firmly place Star Wars in the science fantasy category as well, as the first movie is essentially a medieval romance with sci-fi trappings. -M
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Mar 27, 2024 20:34:57 GMT -5
I firmly place Star Wars in the science fantasy category as well, as the first movie is essentially a medieval romance with sci-fi trappings. Agreed, although I use the term Space Fantasy because that's the term Lucas used in 1976 and 77, and so too did the early Marvel comics. But same difference. It annoys me when I see SW described as sci-fi.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 27, 2024 20:37:05 GMT -5
As we're defining genres though, I should mention the only criteria the youtubers had for a movie being swords & sorcery was that it has to have both swords and sorcery in it. Nothing else. By that broad definition, most of the stuff they picked fits, but by that broad definition Star Wars (with the sorcery of the Force and laser swords (light sabers) could be classified as a sword & sorcery movie, so it feels to me like one of those useless defintions that does nothing to define or limit the field. But if you just want an excuse to recommend movies you like, it works fine.
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 27, 2024 21:24:21 GMT -5
While I appreciate Conan and I’m a fan of Howard’s writing, I’m of the opinion that the biggest thing Conan had going for him is that he caught the eye of a big name SF writer in L. Sprague de Camp and Howard’s estate had a very aggressive literary agent in Glenn Lord. Barring either of those and it’s likely that Howard and Conan are as nearly forgotten as Seabury Quinn and Jules de Grandin.
People don’t seem to realize that Weird Tales had a pretty low circulation for a pulp and was viewed as being barely better than the “shudders.” Fritz Leiber’s Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser did just as much to codify sword & sorcery as Conan, and did it in magazines with a much larger circulation.
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Post by MRPs_Missives on Mar 27, 2024 22:02:59 GMT -5
While I appreciate Conan and I’m a fan of Howard’s writing, I’m of the opinion that the biggest thing Conan had going for him is that he caught the eye of a big name SF writer in L. Sprague de Camp and Howard’s estate had a very aggressive literary agent in Glenn Lord. Barring either of those and it’s likely that Howard and Conan are as nearly forgotten as Seabury Quinn and Jules de Grandin. People don’t seem to realize that Weird Tales had a pretty low circulation for a pulp and was viewed as being barely better than the “shudders.” Fritz Leiber’s Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser did just as much to codify sword & sorcery as Conan, and did it in magazines with a much larger circulation. Point taken, and Leiber coins the term S&S, but also acknowledges his debt to REH to the point of saying had he not read Howard, he doesn't do Fafhrd & Mouser and there isn't a market for those type of adventures for him to sell to. Leiber certainly reaches a laeger audience with his S&S tales, but does he even write them without Howard and Conan creating a market for them to begin with? -M
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 27, 2024 22:25:21 GMT -5
I firmly place Star Wars in the science fantasy category as well, as the first movie is essentially a medieval romance with sci-fi trappings. Agreed, although I use the term Space Fantasy because that's the term Lucas used in 1976 and 77, and so too did the early Marvel comics. But same difference. It annoys me when I see SW described as sci-fi. The general consensus of the sci-fi world was that it was "space opera," in the tradition of EE "Doc" Smith, from whom Lucas swiped the Lensmen and turned them into Jedi and also swiped the plot for the first act. Right down to ejecting in a lifeboat to a planet below, with secret plans of the enemy's weapon. Charles Lippencott told the story of promoting Star Wars at one of the big conventions and being heckled by one of the major sci-fi writers (I want to say Poul Anderson or Jerry Pournelle, but, I'm not sure either is correct) who said, "That's just space opera." The term hasn't been used much in the ensuing decades, but it was a favorite term for high adventure stories, set in space and alien worlds, without real hard science elements. So EE "Doc" Smith's Lensman Saga and his Skylark series, Buck Rogers, Flash Gordon (wit a bit more emphasis on fantasy & opera, than space), Captain Future, Northwest Smith, etc. Even Star Trek, to a certain extent, falls into space opera, depending on who is writing the episode. Leigh Brackett and "planetary romance" overlapped a lot. As with anything, a genre or sub-genre greatly depends on the definition of the reviewer or essayist. I kind of like the term, myself, where adventure trumps science, in an outer space setting (or alien world). Krull has too many fantasy elements to really want to lump it in anything other than fantasy. If the opening prologue didn't say the Beast came from space, you would just assume he was a wizard from that world or another dimension. I think the filmmakers were trying to hedge their bets and catch more of the Star Wars fans, as they weren't as sure about a pure fantasy film. Even the Beast and the Slayers don't have a technology that you can't consign to "magic," in the usual fantasy sense, rather than the "So advanced as to seem magic, to primitive people."
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