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Post by berkley on Apr 20, 2024 18:29:50 GMT -5
I hated the last season of The Wire. So…not so much. I said I liked the ending. There were ups and downs throughout that series.
Yes, though I'd say the last year was clearly the weakest overall.
I think you'll be impressed with Mad Men. Bit of a slow burn at first but amply repays the effort of continuing.
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Post by commond on Apr 20, 2024 18:46:45 GMT -5
Better Call Saul had fans guessing until the end. The finale wasn't as explosive as many expected, but it was a satisfying conclusion.
I see a lot of love for the Shield's ending.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 20, 2024 21:24:42 GMT -5
Game of Thrones, of course. After five brilliant and complex seasons, the show turned into a confused one-dimensional mess. Plot holes you can ride a dragon through, plot-imandated stupidity galore, characters who might as well be different people and a downer of a conclusion. Funny how that happened at the exact spot where they moved beyond the source material. Coincidence? I think not! However, I'm a bit worried that the general outline was based on George R.R. Martin's own, and the mess that was made of it forced him to reconsider his own planned ending, adding even more years to the writing of the final two books.
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Post by impulse on Apr 21, 2024 8:02:20 GMT -5
Funny how that happened at the exact spot where they moved beyond the source material. Coincidence? I think not! However, I'm a bit worried that the general outline was based on George R.R. Martin's own, and the mess that was made of it forced him to reconsider his own planned ending, adding even more years to the writing of the final two books. Yes, the show creators supposedly had Martin's general notes and outlines, but we don't know how closely they adhered to his notes since the books aren't out, so are the most undesirable parts Martin's ideas or from the show creators? Also, while I do think Martin could get to many of the same plot points in a more believable and less obnoxious way, will the show's presentation ruin them before they even arrive? I'm no longer optimistic the books will receive an ending at all, though, let alone worrying about whether it will be good or not. I'm not knocking the author. I can't imagine the pressure he's under, but just looking at the increasing # of years between volumes and increasing complexity of the plot, it's difficult to see how it can be brought together short of a random plague or something taking out 75% of the characters.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 21, 2024 14:37:49 GMT -5
Coincidence? I think not! However, I'm a bit worried that the general outline was based on George R.R. Martin's own, and the mess that was made of it forced him to reconsider his own planned ending, adding even more years to the writing of the final two books. Yes, the show creators supposedly had Martin's general notes and outlines, but we don't know how closely they adhered to his notes since the books aren't out, so are the most undesirable parts Martin's ideas or from the show creators? Also, while I do think Martin could get to many of the same plot points in a more believable and less obnoxious way, will the show's presentation ruin them before they even arrive? I'm no longer optimistic the books will receive an ending at all, though, let alone worrying about whether it will be good or not. I'm not knocking the author. I can't imagine the pressure he's under, but just looking at the increasing # of years between volumes and increasing complexity of the plot, it's difficult to see how it can be brought together short of a random plague or something taking out 75% of the characters. Martin has said that the complexity of the story kind of got away from him. And to be honest, all the related and separate side work he's been doing is the kind of thing I do when I'm stalling about going back to something that I haven't finished but have pretty much lost interest in. Plus, whereas Robert Jordan left very detailed notes so that Wheel of Time could be completed by someone else if necessary, Martin has also said that nobody but him will finish the series. So, this kind of thing is one reason I tend to wait for serial series to be completed before I read them.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 21, 2024 20:06:25 GMT -5
Yes, the show creators supposedly had Martin's general notes and outlines, but we don't know how closely they adhered to his notes since the books aren't out, so are the most undesirable parts Martin's ideas or from the show creators? Also, while I do think Martin could get to many of the same plot points in a more believable and less obnoxious way, will the show's presentation ruin them before they even arrive? I'm no longer optimistic the books will receive an ending at all, though, let alone worrying about whether it will be good or not. I'm not knocking the author. I can't imagine the pressure he's under, but just looking at the increasing # of years between volumes and increasing complexity of the plot, it's difficult to see how it can be brought together short of a random plague or something taking out 75% of the characters. Martin has said that the complexity of the story kind of got away from him. And to be honest, all the related and separate side work he's been doing is the kind of thing I do when I'm stalling about going back to something that I haven't finished but have pretty much lost interest in. Plus, whereas Robert Jordan left very detailed notes so that Wheel of Time could be completed by someone else if necessary, Martin has also said that nobody but him will finish the series. So, this kind of thing is one reason I tend to wait for serial series to be completed before I read them. Martin is 75 and hardly the picture of good health...I think the tv ending is likely to be the only one we are ever going to get. I've never actually read the books and have never been enticed enough to do so. I have read the Wild Cards series, which is a mixture of a lot of people's work; but which I thought went off the rails about the mid-point of the original publishing run, before it switched to a new publisher. Looking over the history of the publication of A Song of Ice and Fire; I kind of get the same impression, that the project went off the rails between books 3 and 4, regardless of the actual content. It seems like his editor needed to put a foot in his backside to get the work done, or else George would be off doing other things; and, unlike Stephen King, he doesn't seem to be able to juggle multiple projects and hit deadlines (though King owed his publisher a Dark Tower book for quite a while, before he finally produced it). That's all technical stuff, though, rather than a commentary on the quality of the work. Like I say, I haven't read them and have no opinion as far as their quality. I watched the tv and kind of felt it was entertaining, but vastly over-praised, as little seemed terribly original or that deep and it seemed like several plot threads just kind of broke off and disappeared, while they were still adapting the published material. I kind of burnt out on fantasy literature, in the early 90s. I grew tired of the same basic plots, over and over. The one author I found engaging was Glen Cook, with his Black Company series. The original trilogy was great, then he added a sequel series, which started well, then kind of stalled for several years, and what was promised as the wrap up to that storyline, turned into 3 more books. I just kind of lost interest there, too. Terry Pratchett became pretty much it for me, and I was a bit late in discovering Discworld, because of the burnout. Aside from that, it's ostly been pulpier stuff and metafictions, like Kim Newman's stuff, which blends multiple genres and easter eggs. The burnout is part of why I never tried A Song of Ice and Fire, plus my experience with the Wild Cards.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 22, 2024 11:06:36 GMT -5
Martin has said that the complexity of the story kind of got away from him. And to be honest, all the related and separate side work he's been doing is the kind of thing I do when I'm stalling about going back to something that I haven't finished but have pretty much lost interest in. Plus, whereas Robert Jordan left very detailed notes so that Wheel of Time could be completed by someone else if necessary, Martin has also said that nobody but him will finish the series. So, this kind of thing is one reason I tend to wait for serial series to be completed before I read them. Martin is 75 and hardly the picture of good health...I think the tv ending is likely to be the only one we are ever going to get. I tend to agree with you. It's too bad, because there used to be a huge following for the series in the early '00s. They are really very good! Or at least the first three books were, and I enjoyed the fifth. The world building is much better than anything I've seen in a fantasy context outside of Tolkien. (The Encyclopedia published several years ago was very cool, too). After the third book, however, Martin brought even more characters and parallel plots to his story. This caused the fourth book to be such a huge thing that it was decided to split it in two. Alas, not in a Book IV-part I, Book IV-part 2 fashion; instead, chapters devoted to characters x,y, and z were put in book IV and characters a, b,c had their chapters in... ...a much delayed Book V, even if Martin had claimed that the two would be published practically back to back. This meant we had to wait even longer to know what was happening to certain characters, and it hurt the general flow of the story. Then we all went "and now my watch begins", and 13 years later we're still waiting. Though certainly not as eagerly as before. I mean, I'd love Martin to finish his tale, but if he prefers to devote his time to other pursuits, more power to him. From his blog posts a few years ago (I used to visit his blog-not-a-bog), he seemed to have lost interest. References to the ongoing work were not enthusiastic, and instead made it all sound like a chore. He much preferred to talk about football! At his age, he's entitled to do whatever he likes; I'm already thankful for the good time he gave us with the early books.
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Post by impulse on Apr 22, 2024 17:43:52 GMT -5
It feels gauche to say it, but I agree that the show end is likely the only one that will be published for all of the reasons stated.
I also agree the first three novels are great.
ASOIAF is also the reason I usually don’t start multipart stories that aren’t completed yet.
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Post by Marv-El on Apr 22, 2024 17:59:40 GMT -5
I've read Book One of Game of Thrones. Typically I'm wary of starting/reading any novel that is 500+ pages so that book better grab and hold my attention for me to finish it. Well there was a plot twist about 1/3 of the way through that caught my attention so I felt compelled to finish it.
But afterwards I was burned out on it so while I do have Book Two, I have yet to start it. As for the show, yeah, I've heard similar praise for it over the years from friends (even the same complaints over how it went off the rails near the end) but now that I'd read Book One, I felt more interested in finally watching it.
That interest lasted all of the first 20 minutes of the first episode. HBO being it's usual self about 'showing more', I was really put off by all the T&A I saw. I really liked the character of Tyrion, I think Peter Dinklage is a superb actor yet his intro in the episode was nothing like it was in the book, all T&A instead (which does fit within the character but right out of the gate from his first scene??) Sorry HBO, if I want that, I'll watch porn instead.
Sopranos, haven't watched. Breaking Bad, haven't watched.
I've seen the first episode of The Wire and while it was very good, it was also very involved ie a show that to really enjoy, I have to really pay attention to it. With my work schedule, it's easy for me to doze off at nights so I may get around to watching more of it whenever I feel like I can give it the proper attention.
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Post by Calidore on Apr 24, 2024 8:01:08 GMT -5
I have read the Wild Cards series, which is a mixture of a lot of people's work; but which I thought went off the rails about the mid-point of the original publishing run, before it switched to a new publisher. Did Wild Cards have a continuity, like Thieves World?
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Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 24, 2024 11:21:11 GMT -5
I was todays year old when I discovered that the “King of Queens “ show ended with them getting divorced. That’s a terrible ending. Are there Any shows where you didn’t like the ending ? The Battlestar Galactica reboot. Excellent series for most of its run, but it turns out the showrunners didn't actually have an idea of what the Cylons' plan might be or how to explain the mysteries they set up over the years. So having to conclude the show, they went "oh, we'll say it was all part of God's secret plan, and all the inconsistencies are due to His mysterious ways." Game of Thrones, of course. After five brilliant and complex seasons, the show turned into a confused one-dimensional mess. Plot holes you can ride a dragon through, plot-mandated stupidity galore, characters who might as well be different people and a downer of a conclusion. Most of the BSG revival stands as one of my favorite science fiction tv series ever made, but the conceptually poor final season is a black mark against it. Regarding GoT, I stand with those who don't mind the downer ending ... but object to how we got there (pun unintended). Frankly after the series departed from the novels, I was so bored I was willing to stop watching it entirely, and only continued because my wife wanted to finish the series off. Star Trek Enterprise. Overall, I loved this show. The cast was terrific, Scott Bakula was a great captain. I even liked the opening theme song. The storylines were good from the temporal cold war to the Xindi conflict but the show was really clicking on the last season with story arcs focusing more on early Trek history like the Augments (with Khan), Vulcan history (Surak and logic were not that eagerly embraced) and a wonderful two-part Mirror Universe story with a surprising fun ending, all leading towards the Earth/Romulan war and the founding of the Federation, it was all good!! Until the series finale.....with THOSE two prominent Trek guest stars....which totally undermined the series. So much rubbish and such a waste. I consider the couple seasons hopelessly mediocre, but once they handed it over to Many Coto it became one of the best Trek series out there. However, the finale was taken from him and handed back to the team who made the early episodes, and the mediocrity aggressively reasserted itself. I just read Coto's plans for the aborted fifth season, and it is to weep: At the time of the cancellation, Coto had hoped for renewal and already started to make plans for the fifth season. These included the expectation that the show would begin to cover the buildup to the Romulan War, as well as continue to link to The Original Series with references to things such as the cloud city of Stratos, as seen in "The Cloud Minders".[120] Another feature Coto planned was to have a "miniseries within a series", with four or five episodes devoted to following up on events from the Mirror Universe episode "In a Mirror, Darkly". The producers also intended to bring Jeffrey Combs onto the series as a regular by placing his recurring Andorian character Shran on the bridge of the Enterprise in an advisory capacity.[16] Work had already begun on an episode referred to by Coto as "Kilkenny Cats", which would have seen the return of Larry Niven's Kzinti, usually seen in his Known Space novels, and who had previously appeared in the Star Trek: The Animated Series episode "The Slaver Weapon".[121] At the same time Enterprise was broadcast, writer Jimmy Diggs was pursuing the idea of a CGI animated film, Star Trek: Lions of the Night, with Captain Hikaru Sulu leading the Starship Enterprise and attempting to prevent a Kzinti invasion of the Federation.[122] Coto's episode was based on a similar premise, with Diggs brought onto the Enterprise team to work on the episode.[123] Production had begun on the new Kzinti ships for "Kilkenny Cats", with Josh Finney commissioned.[124]
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 24, 2024 11:40:04 GMT -5
I have read the Wild Cards series, which is a mixture of a lot of people's work; but which I thought went off the rails about the mid-point of the original publishing run, before it switched to a new publisher. Did Wild Cards have a continuity, like Thieves World? Yeah, there was a progression in the story and references back. For instance, the character Puppetman, aka Gregg Hartmann, a senator with the Ace power to control people he touched, runs for president of the United States. He attempts to manipulate the Democratic Convention, towards that end. However, an assassin is hired to eliminate him and in battle, his Puppetman personality is destroyed and he loses his power. Dr Tachyon coerces a mental breakdown, in public, to ensure he loses the party nomination. After that, his mind is "jumped" into the body of a slug-like Joker, in an homage of Kafka's Metamorphosis (which, there was already a Joker, called Kafka, who resembled a cockroach, in the books). and is forced to hide out. Captain Trips starts out as a square college student, in the 60s, who tries LSD and it unleashes an Ace power and personality, and he becomes a charismatic, super figure, who aids a student protest, but the power wears off, as he comes down and he reverts to his original form. He spends the next several years trying to tap that persona and power again, resulting in several personalities, with different abilities, triggered by different "chemicals." (drugs) He is called Captain Trips and all of his personalities manifest as entire beings, physically, and they each are an homage to a 60s song, like Jumpin' Jack Flash, who has pyro-kinetic abilities. He ends up uncovering a new persona, which defends a new colony of Wild card victims, who have set up a community, in Vietnam. They become a sovereign nation. by the end of that story, which continues into the next book. For those who have never read them, the books are a series of "mosaic" novels, usually, though there have been some novels by single authors (using characters created by others). It grew out of a role playing game, between several sci-fi and fantasy authors, with Martin acting as editor. The premise is that an alien race, who is obsessed with pure genetic bloodlines (they have feuding "houses," ala Dune) develops a genetic weapon, which alters the DNA of a target, which is their "ultimate weapon." They decide to test it on Earth, leading to the Roswell Event. The ship crashes and the authorities recover technology, including the gene bomb. It is stolen away by a nutjob scientist, who, during WW2, fought the young hero Jetboy (a pastiche of Hillman's Airboy) One of the aliens comes to Earth to stop the experiment and he becomes known as Dr Tachyon (a pastiche of Doctor Who). The mad scientist tries to extort the government with the bomb and Jetboy tries to stop him from activating it, but fails, leading the the genetic virus being unleashed over New York City. It is dubbed the Wild Card Virus, because of the unpredictable results. Most victims are killed outright. Of the survivors, a large percentage are mutated into horrible forms, called Jokers. A very small percentage gain beneficial super powers, known as Aces (and there is a sub-group, with very minor powers, called Deuces). The government ends up assembling a team, called the Four Aces, to act in their behalf, in world affairs, but a failure in Communist China leads to suspicion of their activities and they are grilled by HUAC, breaking up the team. As time goes by, the virus spreads across the globe and different cultures handle things differently. A new generation of Aces and Jokers start appearing in the 60s, which then informs the modern stories. For instance, a young man discovers he is telekinetic, at a very powerful level, but his own inhibitions mean he cannot be seen using his powers, or he loses confidence. He and a friend take an old VW Beetle chasis and weld armor plate to it and he travels around in it, levitating, and uses his powers as The Great and Powerful Turtle (a bit of an homage to the Wizard of Oz, among other things). Another character, known as The Sleeper (from HG Wells' story, "The Sleeper Awakes"), goes through periods where he falls into a catatonic sleep. When he awakens, he is in a new form, with new powers. Sometimes he is an Ace, sometimes a Joker. When he has beneficial powers, he tries to prolong it by staying awake, taking amphetamines, but eventually crashes and goes into hibernation again. The series also has an alternate history. Cuba is still controlled by the Mafia and Fidel Castro became a professional baseball player and, then, a general manager. Frank Zappa became an Army officer, who rose to the rank of general. There was a mini-series, from Epic, in 1990, which was rather disappointing, I thought. Dabel Brothers did another mini, in 2008, and Marvel published one in 2022. Bantam put out two graphic novels and Dabel Brothers and Del Rey put out a pair.. Chris Claremont contributed at least one story, in the 90s, since there were a lot parallels to his X-Men stories (Wild Card persecution, "good" and "bad" Wild Cards, etc). New books would have references to past events and their were subplots, that continued across books, like an archer vigilante, Yeoman, who is seeking revenge against a Triad group, from Vietnam, tied to the war. I discovered the series about 3 or 4 books in and continued up to their first switch between publishers and then the complete interruption of the series (at Bantam, which then switched to Baen). I picked up the first of the revived series, but I felt the series pretty much dropped off in quality around book 8, in 1991, which is the one with the Claremont story ("Luck Be a Lady"), though the 10th, Double Solitaire, by Melinda Snodgrass, focusing on Dr Tachyon, was pretty good. I was already losing interest, when they switched to Baen and I never really regained and just stopped reading them. The early ones were more fun and had the more interesting material, for me. I thought they went a bit nuts when they introduced the "jumpers," a group of people who could swap minds in bodies, leading to Puppetman being placed in a Joker body and Dr Tachyon jumped into a female body. There were some interesting ideas, but the sum was less than the individual parts. I know others who remained fans through the longer run, so mileage varies. I just find that the earliest stories were the better ones. The first two books do a lot of introductory work, then they start having more of an over-arching story, in the book, with each story contributing to a larger tale, like a serialized tv show, like Babylon 5.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 24, 2024 11:47:45 GMT -5
ps Wild Cards was optioned for a tv series and possible movie, back in the early 90s; but, nothing ever came of it. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it was optioned either as he began A Song of Ice and Fire or either just before or just after; but, well before it was optioned for other media. After languishing in Development Hell, I assume the rights reverted back to Martin and the authors. With the success of Game of Thrones, new options were picked up, in 2016, for television, and there was a film option, in 2011, that has gone nowhere, if it still exists. It was perfect for a tv series and wouldn't have been that budget intensive, depending on the characters you chose to use and the storyline. Well, except maybe the Jokers. I think Chrysalis, whose skin is transparent and you see the muscle tissue and organs underneath (like the Visible Woman figures), would be a bit unnerving, to be a regular.
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Post by chadwilliam on Apr 24, 2024 18:57:44 GMT -5
Star Trek's last episode "Turnabout Intruder" thoroughly dispelled any misconceived notion I may have had that this was some sort of culturally enlightened for its time series - a giant F You to anyone who might have even briefly considered the possibility that a woman should have the same rights as men.
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Post by berkley on Apr 24, 2024 23:38:07 GMT -5
Star Trek's last episode "Turnabout Intruder" thoroughly dispelled any misconceived notion I may have had that this was some sort of culturally enlightened for its time series - a giant F You to anyone who might have even briefly considered the possibility that a woman should have the same rights as men.
I don't remember which episode that is (I'm pretty sure I've seen them all but I've never watched them from start to finish in order of broadcast) but my feeling about the series in general is that of course it didn't get everything right: there are many, many examples of inadvertent sexism, racism, and (probably not so inadvertent) American jingoism. What made it special - apart from the iconic characters, compelling stories, beautiful set and (also sexist, arguably) costume designs, etc - was that the show made repeated attempts to rise above these attitudes that were part of the very air they breathed and very occasionally even succeeded. Of course they didn't get it right most of the time but at least there was a glimmer of enlightenment from time to time, much more often than on most things of the era.
It's been a long, long time since I've watched any Star Trek, so it's quite possible I'll find myself reacting in the same way you did to this particular episode next time I see it. Even when I was watching the re-runs in the 70s I found I had problems with certain episodes that I had enjoyed uncritically as a very small kid in the late 60s. But it didn't lead me to condemn the whole series or even that particular episode: I just saw it with an added level of awareness
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