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Post by Icctrombone on May 30, 2024 14:39:21 GMT -5
Great episode, but I'm holding a big posting until I re-read Avengers 1-4. Have the first two in the bag. Spoiler alert: They're great !
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,639
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2024 18:49:10 GMT -5
Great episode, but I'm holding a big posting until I re-read Avengers 1-4. Have the first two in the bag. Spoiler alert: They're great ! Tony the Tiger would like a word, George.
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Post by EdoBosnar on May 31, 2024 6:08:25 GMT -5
I enjoyed the show, too, but decided not to post any comments until, like MDG, I had re-read Avengers 1-4 to have more fresh impressions of the stories. And I have to say, I came away with the same feeling I get whenever I read those early Avengers issues: they're really pretty silly, and not necessarily in a good way. You guys covered some of these aspects in Avengers #4, but they're there all the way through (esp. in issues 1 and 2). While I tend to agree with the overall point of your conversation, i.e., that reintroducing Cap in that way, had really far-reaching consequences for the Marvel U going forward (just as the Avengers soon became a really powerhouse title on its own), I think that's in spite of rather than due to the quality of those initial issues - apologies to everyone who, like Icctrombone and Cei-U! who seem to love them unreservedly. Otherwise, one thing that surprised me the first time I read Avengers 1-4 all together - which was only a few years ago, when they were reprinted in the Marvel digests published by Archie (back in the day I had access to reprints of the first and fourth issues) - is how much the first three issues in particular are really about the antagonism between the Hulk and the rest of the Avengers.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 31, 2024 6:19:42 GMT -5
I enjoyed the show, too, but decided not to post any comments until, like MDG , I had re-read Avengers 1-4 to have more fresh impressions of the stories. And I have to say, I came away with the same feeling I get whenever I read those early Avengers issues: they're really pretty silly, and not necessarily in a good way. You guys covered some of these aspects in Avengers #4, but they're there all the way through (esp. in issues 1 and 2). While I tend to agree with the overall point of your conversation, i.e., that reintroducing Cap in that way, had really far-reaching consequences for the Marvel U going forward (just as the Avengers soon became a really powerhouse title on its own), I think that's in spite of rather than due to the quality of those initial issues - apologies to everyone who, like Icctrombone and Cei-U! who seem to love them unreservedly. Otherwise, one thing that surprised me the first time I read Avengers 1-4 all together - which was only a few years ago, when they were reprinted in the Marvel digests published by Archie (back in the day I had access to reprints of the first and fourth issues) - is how much the first three issues in particular are really about the antagonism between the Hulk and the rest of the Avengers. I might have mentioned that I grade these and any Silver Age comics on a curve. You absolutely have to allow for goofiness and logic problems , but those issues are about the 5 Avengers trying to gel. The Hulk is someone they have to try to control because he was dangerous to the world. It all ties together and it comes to a head when they tangled with the Hulk in FF # 25. You can't assign the sophistication that started to appear in themes starting in the 70's and 80's to a 1964 Story. I will admit that I was much younger when I encountered these stories. I don't think many pre-70's stories didn't have silly elements.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,639
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Post by shaxper on May 31, 2024 14:25:50 GMT -5
You can't assign the sophistication that started to appear in themes starting in the 70's and 80's to a 1964 Story. I will admit that I was much younger when I encountered these stories. I don't think many pre-70's stories didn't have silly elements. There was sophisticated graphic storytelling to be found in that era if you were looking for it, but the mainstream comics were trying to churn out a quick and inexpensive product to an audience that they severely underestimated. Sure, Marvel respected their audience more than DC did, but they were still largely writing to adolescents until Roy Thomas arrived (and that's a whole other episode) ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by MDG on May 31, 2024 17:01:31 GMT -5
You can't assign the sophistication that started to appear in themes starting in the 70's and 80's to a 1964 Story. I will admit that I was much younger when I encountered these stories. I don't think many pre-70's stories didn't have silly elements. There was sophisticated graphic storytelling to be found in that era if you were looking for it, but the mainstream comics were trying to churn out a quick and inexpensive product to an audience that they severely underestimated. Sure, Marvel respected their audience more than DC did, but they were still largely writing to adolescents until Roy Thomas arrived (and that's a whole other episode) ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I don't know that Marvel "respected" their readers more than DC did. I think Kirby and Ditko felt that comics could do more than was being done and created more mature work because that's what they wanted to do. But a Iron Man story by Robert Bernstein was pretty much the same thing he was churning out for DC.
But, certainly, the Marvel Method led to more sophisticated graphic storytelling than there was at DC, since the artists had to tell the story. At DC, the artists--often with very sophisticated design--just had to illustrate what was written in the script.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 1, 2024 7:38:44 GMT -5
There was sophisticated graphic storytelling to be found in that era if you were looking for it, but the mainstream comics were trying to churn out a quick and inexpensive product to an audience that they severely underestimated. Sure, Marvel respected their audience more than DC did, but they were still largely writing to adolescents until Roy Thomas arrived (and that's a whole other episode) ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) I don't know that Marvel "respected" their readers more than DC did. I think Kirby and Ditko felt that comics could do more than was being done and created more mature work because that's what they wanted to do. But a Iron Man story by Robert Bernstein was pretty much the same thing he was churning out for DC.
But, certainly, the Marvel Method led to more sophisticated graphic storytelling than there was at DC, since the artists had to tell the story. At DC, the artists--often with very sophisticated design--just had to illustrate what was written in the script.
The Marvel method had both he writer and the artists creativity on display, rather than just the writers.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 1, 2024 7:52:42 GMT -5
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 1, 2024 15:16:14 GMT -5
Are you the guy or the girder?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 1, 2024 15:26:12 GMT -5
Are you the guy or the girder? He’s just another brick in the wall.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 1, 2024 15:27:34 GMT -5
Are you the guy or the girder? I immediately assumed he was the girder, but now you've got me wondering, too...
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Post by Prince Hal on Jun 1, 2024 15:28:21 GMT -5
Are you the guy or the girder? I immediately assumed he was the girder, but now you've got me wondering, too... I was goin' girder, too.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jun 1, 2024 18:08:09 GMT -5
I’m the wall. Listen to the podcast. ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 18, 2024 15:15:11 GMT -5
I just wanna say that rubber cementing an old comic that's falling apart makes a lot more sense to me than encasing it in plastic.
Way to go, young Scott!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 19, 2024 12:15:28 GMT -5
Oh, on the Namor thing... According to the Black Panther movie, his name comes from a Spaniard saying that the Sub-Mariner as a kid was "si n amor". A late retcon, to be sure, but that's the pronunciation I use (because it's the same as in French anyway!!! ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) )
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