Yeah, it seems relatively clear that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko both had a pretty firm idea of what they wanted to do with the Green Goblin from the outset. That kind of foreshadowing and plot-building is fairly unusual for Silver Age comics, I think.





A nice bit of misdirection there from Stan and Steve – Foswell released from jail, just as the Goblin reappears. And again, near the end of this issue, Peter theorises that there must be some connection between Foswell and the Goblin.





Yeah, I'd either forgotten or didn't know about these early – and very deliberate, according to Ditko and John Romita – appearances of the as-yet-unnamed Norman Osborn, until other forum members reminded me earlier in this thread. It's fascinating, when you know the backstory, to watch Ditko laying the groundwork for the big reveal of the Goblin's identity like this.





I have to say that I sometimes find the teenaged angst associated with Betty and Peter's relationship during this period slightly annoying. There's a severe lack of communication between these two lovebirds sometimes, which results in quite a lot of unnecessary heartache. I mean, I get that it's just Stan and Steve's way of injecting some romantic conflict into proceedings, but sometimes their mis-communications just kinda stretch credibility.





This is a nice little detail of Peter's week-to-week existence as Spider-Man. There's no Jarvis to wash his costume for him – he's gotta do it himself and wait for it to dry like anybody else.





I love that scene – with the door separating Spidey from the gangsters webbed shut, while he nonchalantly chats to Aunt May. These lovely little moments of Peter taking care of his day-to-day social life really reinforce that we aren't reading about your usual superhero.


All in all, this is almost certainly regarded by most fans as a stronger issue than the previous one, but I tend to enjoy ASM #22 more, if I'm honest. Still, it's great to see the return of the Green Goblin, with all the associated intrigue about his secret identity. This story provides a nice bridge between the Goblin's initial appearances and his more important appearances in issues #26-27 and #39-40. Ditko's artwork is great, as ever, especially in the big battle with the Goblin in a factory (?), with pipes everywhere, which provides an excuse for some great acrobatics. Also, this is another fabulous cover, with Spider-Man inverted, as the Goblin tries to tangle him in his own webbing, while pumpkin bombs fly.

In #37, Ditko makes it very clear that he's setting Osborn up to be the Goblin. If he hadn't originally conceived of Osborn as the Goblin when he introduced Osborn (and I personally believe that he did, Ditko set up a lot of long term subplots during his time on Spider-Man), I think it's clear that at some point he decided that was the direction he wanted to go in.

Also, #24 is one of my favourite issues of the Lee-Ditko run. A great use of Mysterio, and a plot that really set the book apart from other super hero comics, even those in the Marvel line. 

Its not thinking Romita lied, and I would never suggest that of Romita (of all people). He could have misremembered the succession of events. That said, in issue #104 of Alter Ego's 2011 article, STAN LEE’s Amazing Marvel Interview! Two Extraordinary 2005 Audio Sessions With The Man Who Spearheaded Marvel Comics, the Lee transcript laid out his well-covered version of the story:




He is corrected about switching the father and son's names, but Lee's recollection is largely the same as its been for quite some time. Even if one accepts the idea that Ditko wanted Norman Osborn to end up as the Goblin, that does not graft the dramatic, night and day development of the character--essentially the defining shaping & representation of the character--to Ditko, as if he would have made the same creative choices in every Goblin/Osborn appearance occurring between TASM #39 - #122 (or 1968's The Spectacular Spider-Man magazine #2). As mentioned before, Ditko was not that kind of writer, and it is highly doubtful he would somehow get there with the same perspective, emotional approaches to character development as Lee, et al. Few would say (as evidence) that he must have laid down the heart of that which would unfold in TASM #39 - 40, as it was indicative of his kind of writing, which readers would see in his post-Marvel work. That last part is key in any comparison / contrast of the creative forces at work behind any endeavor, since Ditko's post-Marvel output gave no indication that he--if he remained--would have infused and nurtured what was to come in TASM, whether dealing with Osborn or any other arcs.[/div]

THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 26 - 27 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 164 - 165)

.


part 1- “The Mystery of The Man in the Crime-Master’s Mask!”

Credits (as they appear in the comic):

Stealthily Scripted by Stan Lee
Painstakingly Plotted by Steve Ditko
Lovingly Lettered by Sam Rosen
Callously Colored by Andy Yanchus



part 2- “Bring Back My Goblin to Me!”

Credits (as they appear in the comic):

Edited and Written by Smilin’ Stan Lee
Plotted and Drawn by Scowlin’ Steve Ditko
Lettered and Gift-Wrapped by Swingin’ Artie Simek
Colored and Coded by Singin’ Andy Yanchus [accentuated by random musical notes]



It's been one month since I started this thread, but somehow it seems like it's been going on so much longer! To commemorate the occasion, and since this is a two part story, I’m combining both issues into one BIG review! Actually, I’ll probably be doing this more and more frequently once we get into the post-Ditko, later Romita era as the storylines become longer and run for multiple issues. 







Plot Synopsis:

The Green Goblin and the Crime-Master battle for control over the city’s underworld, and without his costume, Spider-man can’t do a thing about it!





Comments:

As if the ongoing mystery of the Green Goblin’s identity isn’t enough, now we’ve got this mysterious Crime-Master character too. The Crime-Master’s name pretty much says it all, but he also likes to think of himself as “The Kingpin of the City’s Gangs”! Don’t know why he doesn’t just call himself Kingpin to begin with. That sounds like it’d make a good super-villain name.





Even with all the action and mystery going on here, these issues manage to make time for the rest of the supporting cast. Peter’s romantic life is as complicated as ever whether it’s between him getting jealous over Betty writing letters to Ned, or Betty jealous over Pete’s other girlfriends Liz and Mary Jane.




At school Peter’s temper finally gets the better of him and he strikes out at Flash and a whole bunch of other kids. We see another side of Flash as he actually owns up to his part in instigating the fight rather than let Peter take full responsibility. This is close to the end of High School for these kids, and they’ll be graduating next issue, so it’s nice to see some things get settled, at least for a little bit.  




Spider-man finds himself in a predicament that no other super-hero would ever find himself in. After the events of last issue, Peter is stuck without a costume. Peter is not sure what Aunt May did with the one she confiscated, (and I don’t think we ever find out). His solution here seems good at first, as Spider-man is a famous character, it’s easy enough for Peter to walk into a store and purchase a ready made costume. Unfortunately the quality of a store bought costume isn’t nearly as good as what a smart, resourceful teenager can make on his own. This new suit doesn’t fit right, but fortunately Spidey’s attempts to hold it together with his web-fluid keep his mask extra secure the few times the bad guys try to unmask him over the course of this story.






Peter has been suspicious of Frederick Foswell, ever since he re-appeared a few months back, seemingly reformed, working once more for the Daily Bugle. Spider-man isn't really much of a detective, and most of the conclusions he comes to are completely wrong. Most of the actual investigative work in this story comes from the police, working with the mysterious informant called Patch.

While searching Foswell's apartment, Spidey walks into an ambush from the mysterious Crime Master, who is actually there to kill Foswell. The staging for Spider-man's rooftop confrontation with the Crime Master is really well done. Although the Crime Master doesn't have any actual powers, his fighting skills and weaponry, particularly his nerve gas, give him enough of an edge to get the better of Spidey in their first encounter. We get to hear the Crime Master's thoughts as he fights Spider-man, with the villain actually acknowledging how strong his opponent is. That's a change of pace from other villains who often fall victim to their own egos and sense of superiority.







Taking a little time out from his investigation, Spidey pays a visit to Jameson to look for his other missing costume, eventually learning that Smythe still has it (something that will be followed up next issue). I like how Jameson doesn't really care why Spider-man is hanging around his office (after all, he's done it a few times before), and JJJ even manages to see through the pretense, offering the information about Smythe, without a second thought and without any of the usual gloating you'd expect.





Another trip to Foswell's apartment yields a few clues which lead Spider-man to a gangland meeting near the docks where the Green Goblin manages to get the drop on him.
Even though the first chapter finishes with a cliff-hanger and is continued the following month, it still ends with “The End”, like every other issue. I doubt that fooled anyone though! Even though earlier Spider-man issues contained continuing plot-threads which moved from one issue to the next, this is the first time an issue picks up right where the last one left off.







The majority of the action in the second part of the story, takes place over the first 9 pages, and there sure is a lot of it. Not only does Spider-man have to contend with a whole bunch of underworld baddies (while still in chains, even), but there's also the Green Goblin and the Crime Master too. I don't know how Ditko manages to keep things straight, but the choreography is really great, and there's a lot of impressive shots of Spider-man doing his thing. The police show up and even though there are a lot more bad guys than good guys, things get wrapped up pretty well. Somehow during all this, Spider-man actually manages to remember to set up his automatic camera, and also keep his costume from coming apart again. Only the Green Goblin and the Crime Master manage to escape. That still leaves more than half the issue to wrap up most of the remaining mysteries and sub-plots.









Still focused on Foswell, and convinced he is somehow mixed up in all of this, Spider-man confronts him at the Daily Bugle, unaware that the threat of the Crime Master is about to come to an end on a nearby rooftop across the street. The Crime Master’s identity is revealed at the end of the story after he's cornered and killed by the police. Of course the Crime Master is revealed as Nick "Lucky" Lewis which is someone neither the readers nor Spidey would ever have guessed, because this is the first time he's been mentioned!

(What is it with the Goblin and gangsters named Lucky anyway)?








While the mystery of the Green Goblin's identity will continue to remain a secret, this story does pay off in another way, by letting us in on Foswell's secret. The readers eventually learn that Foswell is working undercover, in disguise, to help the police, using the alias Patch, however Spidey himself never does learn his real secret. Spidey had suspected Foswell of being either the Green Goblin or the Crime-Master. While the Crime-Master might be a logical assumption, (having a similar look and motivation to Foswell’s previous alias, the Big Man), there’s no way anyone should think Foswell was the Goblin, considering the timing. The Green Goblin first appeared only a few issues after the Big Man was unmasked and sent to prison. While it was never actually confirmed when exactly Foswell was released or how long his sentence was, presumably it wasn’t too much earlier than when he re-appeared in issue 23 which would mean he was still behind bars during the Goblin's earliest appearances.




Peter does manage to get some good pictures out of this whole adventure, and after going through a minor bit of trouble recovering his camera, decides to go about things a bit differently this time around, selling them to the Daily Bugle’s competitor the Daily Globe. He’ll be back to selling pics to Jameson next time, but The Daily Globe and its editor Barney Bushkin will eventually return years later.







Since this is a Green Goblin story, there are a couple cameos from that recurring character who still hasn’t been named. Norman Osborn appears again at Jameson’s club in both issues, and this time actually has some dialogue.




I’ve talked a bit in previous reviews about how the Green Goblin is pretty good about avoiding any real illegal activity, however this story does have him declare himself Ganglord of the City in front of a whole warehouse full of witnesses. Of course most of them are criminals themselves. Foswell is there as Patch and probably reports the Goblin’s involvement in these events when writing the story for the Daily Bugle, but that paper isn’t really known for its unbiased opinions when it comes to costumed characters. The police show up during the big fight scene and they probably have some idea about the Goblin’s role in all this, but what they can actually prove is another thing.




The Green Goblin, having escaped with his identity intact decides to lay low for a while, plotting his revenge, ready to strike when Spider-man least expects it.






With his cheap replacement costume no longer usuable, and unable to locate the one that Aunt May took from him, Peter finds he’ll just have to do things the old-fashioned way and make himself a new costume. He does put that little bit of business on hold though for the moment taking some time out to treat his favourite Aunt to a night on the town and a movie.






Notable differences in the reprints:





Marvel Tales 164

Spider-man and the Crime-Master retain their original placement on the cover, but the Green Goblin’s been flipped and moved to the other side. There’s also some smoke from his glider added behind him which wasn’t there before. Can’t tell if this was taken from some other Ditko drawing, or just added here by whomever does these covers, but it works pretty good. I really like the colour choices here too!

Marvel Mails and Post Office of the Past are here as usual. Danny Fingeroth, Editor. Bob DeNatale, Assistant Editor

The Green Goblin’s pin-up from ASM Annual 1 is reprinted here, appropriately placed to coincide with his appearance this issue



Marvel Tales 165

The original cover has a darker background. The brighter colour choice on the reprint may have been to differentiate it from issue 164, especially considering the Goblin's shifted position on that cover, now looking similar to how he appears on MT 165.

The Crime-Master’s pin-up from ASM Annual 2 is reprinted here which is as good a place as any to include it.

Marvel Mails and Post Office of the Past, still two pages, this time with no intrusive house ads, allowing for a whole bunch of letters for both features. Danny Fingeroth, Editor.  Bob DeNatale, Assistant Editor


Personal anecdotes:

I got both these issues off the stands when they were new and, as usual, the mystery of the Green Goblin’s identity had me on the edge of my seat. Not sure how I managed to endure the month-long wait between issues.

Of course by this time I actually did know the Goblin’s identity. I’d seen the first episode of Spider-man and His Amazing Friends where the Goblin appears, and also had issue 151 of Amazing Spider-man where there’s a thought balloon and caption referring to his identity (that issue actually referred to the second Goblin, but it was close enough for me to figure things out). Still, even though I knew who the Green Goblin really was, the stories reprinted in Marvel Tales were so good at keeping things mysterious that I was actually convinced that all my other sources were wrong. To this day, every time I re-read these issues I get so wrapped up in the story that I still have to second guess myself!

As these Marvel Tales issues were being released, the regular current Spider-titles had a similar long running mystery regarding the Hobgoblin. I didn’t get all Hobby’s appearances, but would always keep an eye out for these whenever I could. The similarities between the new stuff and classic stories, not to mention artist Ron Frenz’s near perfect Ditko imitation, definitely helped hold my interest!



BONUS Comments!!!


The two villains have shared their true identities with one another as leverage should either one attempt to betray the other, but even when the Crime-Master is unmasked and killed at the end nothing really comes from this. Why not?




The Green Goblin’s identity was written down and supposedly locked in a safety deposit box owned by the Crime-Master which was to be opened by the police after his death. Could he have been bluffing? There doesn’t seem to be any obvious validity to his threat since we don’t get any significant follow-up in ASM 26 or 27. Even though the Crime-Master does attempt to spit out the Goblin’s true name with his last breath, his earlier threats made it seem as though he had a way to ensure this information would be revealed should anything happen to him.

There is however, one small line in ASM 28 which ties into a clever plot twist introduced by Kurt Busiek in the final issue of the 1990s series Untold Tales of Spider-man. As far as the Crime Master knows, the Green Goblin is really.....






Jameson being accused of being the Green Goblin does seem like something that should have been shown, rather than occurring off panel between issues. I don't think this was intended as more than a throw-away line, but I like how it fits in.  Even if the Crime Master did have documents naming Jameson as the Goblin, any lawyer could probably have those allegations easily refuted. After all, Jameson did have a good alibi on at least two occasions, being in New York City during the events of ASM 14 while the Green Goblin was filming a movie in Hollywood, or being part of the audience, with plenty of witnesses, in ASM 17 when the Goblin was fighting Spidey.

While Untold Tales of Spider-man came up with a possible explanation, it doesn't really explain the Green Goblin's thoughts in ASM 26 where he fears his secret being made public. Maybe Busiek would have followed up on this a bit more, if Untold Tales continued. A more recent retcon in the Gwen Stacy limited series (aka Giant-size Gwen Stacy) has actually come up with a different, more elaborate and convoluted explanation that seems to cover everything, but I still prefer the way Untold Tales ties-in to the line from ASM 28!

((emphasis mine))

Personally, I find that a little hard to believe given Romita's proximity to Lee and the Marvel Bullpen, plus the fact that he was only remembering or repeating information from the year before. In the 1966 fanzine article, Romita cites the likes of Sol Brodsky, Marie Severin, Roy Thomas, and Stan Lee himself as people who corroborated this and told him that having the Goblin turn out to be Norman Osborn had been Ditko's intention all along. It's important to note, however, that Romita never says he heard this from Ditko's own lips, but nonetheless, enough other people in the Marvel bullpen -- including Stan -- had apparently told him that this had always been Ditko's intention to make it pretty compelling evidence.

Obviously, as the guy who ultimately had to draw the dramatic unmasking of the Green Goblin in ASM #39, after Ditko walked out, I'm sure Stan would've been very clear about the direction Ditko had intended the story to go in.

This is what Romita actually says in the fanzine: "By the way, the choice of Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin was Ditko's. Lee was going to have GG revealed to be Ned Leeds, but Ditko was too fond of Ned so he drew the mags so that Osborn HAD to be the Green Goblin."





Yeah, I knew what Stan has said decades after the fact, and thanks for posting the whole quote – it's very interesting. But like I say, I think this could very easily be down to Stan's faulty memory and he's maybe thinking of the Crime-Master? Hell, Lee even admits that his memory is terrible in that quote.

Also, just to be clear, I'm not saying in any way that the brilliant character development of the Green Goblin/Norman Osborn into such a menacing archenemy under Stan and John Romita had anything to do with Ditko. Obviously, had Steve stayed on the book things would have turned out very differently plot-wise and character development-wise. I'm not trying to take anything away from Lee and/or Romita here.

Ultimately, we can't prove anything completely one way or the other, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. But for my money, Ditko's comments (backed up by Romita's contemporary recollections) have the ring of truth to them. And you know me: I'm certainly not a Stan-basher in any way. I firmly believe that these comics were a fusion of both Ditko and Lee's talents, even when Ditko was plotting all the stories from issue #24 until he left after issue #38, though obviously Stan's influence on those final fifteen issues was very much diminished.

Steve Ditko also plotted issue #18 and, in all likelihood, #24 as well.

As I noted earlier in the thread, from here on until he leaves with issue #38, Steve plotted, drew and inked each issue and then dropped the finished artwork off to Marvel's production manager Sol Brodsky to pass along to Lee, so he could write the dialogue. Amazing Spider-Man is very much Ditko's ship from here until he leaves Marvel. However, Lee was still able to have some input on the stories because he could pass along general plot suggestions for future issues via Brodsky (though Ditko often ignored them), and as the person writing the dialogue, he would sometimes change minor story elements or lessen some of Ditko's more extreme Randian objectivism.





Seeing J. Jonah Jameson team-up with the brilliant, but eccentric (and, as it later turns out) utterly mad Professor Smythe is a joy – as is seeing Jameson's gloating face mocking Spider-Man from the robot's face screen.





Peter generally seems angrier and more intent on Jameson getting his comeuppance in this issue, which is definitely Ditko's doing and fits right into his Randian philosophies. As does Peter's foolhardiness coming back to bite him on the a*s later. That said, the scene where Peter's egging Jameson on to utilise the robot, while he holds Betty back behind him, is actually quite funny. Still, I can't imagine Stan coming up with that scene.





I agree, it is rather silly looking. The Mark II model that will appear in ASM #58 looks much more menacing. I tend to agree with tarkintino that depicting believable (or at least cool looking) tech was not Ditko's strong suit in the way that it was for Jack Kirby.





Peter opening the robot's chest plate and disabling it, only to then create a hastily improvised Spider-Man puppet out of his costume and a few web lines, just in time for Jameson and Smyth to arrive, is a really lame conclusion to the encounter. The ensuing loss of his costume, which will run over into the next couple of issues, is a fun twist though.





That panel with the flower blocking Mary Jane's face always makes me chuckle. It's so deliberately unsubtle!

The whole running gag about Aunt May trying to set Peter up with her friend's niece, who he naturally assumes will be an ugly beast, is delicious precisely because the joke is that the reader – along with Liz, Betty and Flash – know that MJ is a legitimately stunning babe long before Peter realises it.

I think it's fascinating to speculate on what Ditko (and Lee) had in mind for Mary Jane before her Lee/Romita makeover. Of course, Ditko clearly intended for her to be a stunning beauty (as Liz and Betty's reactions prove), but personally I think he was looking to introduce a more mature, glamorous love interest for Peter. Unlike Romita's Mary Jane, Ditko's version is definitely not a happening, swinging '60s chick...just look at the conservative clothing and headscarf she's wearing! Admittedly, the headscarf was likely added just to conceal her appearance, but nevertheless, I think Ditko was intentionally dressing her like a more sophisticated and glamorous woman, a la Grace Kelly, than the free spirited and groovy Ann-Margret influenced character we eventually got.

On a related point, some months ago over in the Stan Lee thread, kirby101 made mention of speculation that he'd seen that Mary Jane was intended to be Princess Python, who Ditko had added to the Circus of Crime Masters of Menace in issue #22. There are some vague clues about this in the stories, and in the way Princess Python dressed similarly to Mary Jane when in her civilian clothing, but nothing concrete, of course. It's fun to speculate on though.


Overall, this is a fun issue. There are some nice character moments between Peter and the supporting cast, culminating in the scene where the gang are running after him, followed by the robot. The soap opera elements here are really interesting – far more so than the actual main plot involving Smyth's robot IMO. And of course, there's the first appearance of Mary Jane Watson (sort of).

I believe by the early 20s, Ditko was doing all the story and plotting with no input from Stan. They were not talking. Ditko also gave layout page breakdowns with dialog and notes to explain the stories to Stan.