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Post by commond on Aug 28, 2024 6:39:22 GMT -5
I believe by the early 20s, Ditko was doing all the story and plotting with no input from Stan. They were not talking. Ditko also gave layout page breakdowns with dialog and notes to explain the stories to Stan. Issue #25 was the first issue that Ditko worked on after Stan stopped speaking to him.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 28, 2024 8:28:39 GMT -5
I believe by the early 20s, Ditko was doing all the story and plotting with no input from Stan. They were not talking. Ditko also gave layout page breakdowns with dialog and notes to explain the stories to Stan. Issue #25 was the first issue that Ditko worked on after Stan stopped speaking to him. I think it was more likely a case of Ditko stopping talking to Lee! Although ASM #25 was the first issue officially credited to Ditko under the new plotting arrangement, I'm pretty sure issue #24 was plotted by Ditko as well -- certainly the GCD credits Ditko as the plotter. And of course, Steve had previously plotted issue #18 as well.
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Post by jester on Aug 28, 2024 9:42:32 GMT -5
I believe by the early 20s, Ditko was doing all the story and plotting with no input from Stan. They were not talking. Ditko also gave layout page breakdowns with dialog and notes to explain the stories to Stan. Although Ditko was probably doing the majority of the plotting, Stan still had plot input at this time. Ditko has stated that he was unhappy about having to do another Spidey-Torch team-up in #23, and he "protested it" by having them get in each other's way and work poorly together during the final fight with The Beetle.
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Post by jester on Aug 28, 2024 9:58:01 GMT -5
On a related point, some months ago over in the Stan Lee thread, kirby101 made mention of speculation that he'd seen that Mary Jane was intended to be Princess Python, who Ditko had added to the Circus of Crime Masters of Menace in issue #22. There are some vague clues about this in the stories, and in the way Princess Python dressed similarly to Mary Jane when in her civilian clothing, but nothing concrete, of course. It's fun to speculate on though. That is very interesting and could have been fun to see, but I'm not sure how much I believe it. While it does relate nicely to Ditko's desire to link up the drama between Peter's super-hero and personal lives (similarly to Osborn as the Goblin), Princess Python only appeared once during Ditko's run, and I think that if he'd planned to make her a central part of the drama, he would've used her more often (compared to how frequently the Goblin appears for instance). The way that Ditko's MJ and Princess Python dress seems to me to be pretty similar to how Ditko dressed the other girls in the book, like Betty, Liz, and Gwen. And I believe that Princess Python gets arrested with the other Circus members at the end of #22, shortly before MJ's first appearance in 25? I can't see Aunt May being too eager to set her nephew up with a known crook, although she was fooled by Doc Ock. Back to the thread, the Goblin-Crime Master storyline in #26-27 is probably my favourite of the Ditko run. The idea of the two mystery villains revealing their identities to each other is cool, and there's a lot of great super hero action combined with a focus on the sub-plots of the supporting cast. I just really like it.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 28, 2024 11:26:07 GMT -5
OK, finally caught up with the thread... THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 26 - 27 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 164 - 165) . These are a couple of really good, intriguing covers by Steve Ditko. Both of them do a great job of making you want to find out what happens inside each comic. The cover of issue #26, with the mysterious Crime-Master gassing Spidey on the rooftop, as the Green Goblin hovers nearby, is especially good. “Bring Back My Goblin to Me!” I always felt like this strange, slightly nonsensical title was a reference to something else…like a song or something. For me, the song that it always brings to my mind is the traditional tune "My Bonnie", with its line: "Bring back my baby to me." I have no idea whether that's where Stan Lee got the idea for the title, but the song had been recorded in a rock 'n' roll style by Tony Sheridan & the Beatles in 1962, and it was re-released once Beatlemania had hit in America and peaked at number #26 on the U.S. charts in March 1964. However, I think it unlikely that Lee was aware of Sheridan and the Beatles' recording. But that's always the song I hear in my head whenever I see the title of ASM #27. Does anybody know if "Bring Back My Goblin to Me!" is alluding to anything in particular? As if the ongoing mystery of the Green Goblin’s identity isn’t enough, now we’ve got this mysterious Crime-Master character too. The Crime-Master is a very memorable character from this period of Spider-Man. I really like his clothing – the sharp suit and fedora – and that distinctive black and white face mask. At school Peter’s temper finally gets the better of him and he strikes out at Flash and a whole bunch of other kids. We see another side of Flash as he actually owns up to his part in instigating the fight rather than let Peter take full responsibility. This is close to the end of High School for these kids, and they’ll be graduating next issue, so it’s nice to see some things get settled, at least for a little bit. Peter finally snapping and lunging at Flash and the others is an example of the new, angrier Peter Parker that we've started to see in these recent Ditko-plotted issues. As I said before, an incident like Flash potentially getting his comeuppance from Peter fits right in with Ditko's Randian philosophies. Of course, Peter pulls back at the last minute, thanks to Liz's alarmed reaction breaking through his rage, but still…this seems like an angrier version of Peter than we've hitherto seen. Also, yeah…it's a nice touch to see Flash firstly being impressed by Peter taking the rap for the fist fight, and secondly, to see him admitting to the school principal that Peter wasn't really to blame. This isn't the first time that we've seen that beneath his bullish exterior Thompson has a conscience, and it foreshadows the maturation we'll see in the character later. Spider-man finds himself in a predicament that no other super-hero would ever find himself in. After the events of last issue, Peter is stuck without a costume. Peter is not sure what Aunt May did with the one she confiscated, (and I don’t think we ever find out). His solution here seems good at first, as Spider-man is a famous character, it’s easy enough for Peter to walk into a store and purchase a ready made costume. Unfortunately the quality of a store bought costume isn’t nearly as good as what a smart, resourceful teenager can make on his own. This new suit doesn’t fit right, but fortunately Spidey’s attempts to hold it together with his web-fluid keep his mask extra secure the few times the bad guys try to unmask him over the course of this story. Yeah, the lost costume(s) sub-plot is a fun one and, as you say, Peter having to web the mask of the store-bought replacement in place saves him from having his secret identity revealed by the bad guys at least twice. Peter has been suspicious of Frederick Foswell, ever since he re-appeared a few months back, seemingly reformed, working once more for the Daily Bugle. Spider-man isn't really much of a detective, and most of the conclusions he comes to are completely wrong. Most of the actual investigative work in this story comes from the police, working with the mysterious informant called Patch. I think Peter finding the hidden compartment in Foswell's wardrobe and deducing – incorrectly, as it turns out – that he is either the Crime-Master or the Goblin is understandable. Of course, he actually turns out to be Patch, the stool pigeon, but I think that Peter can be forgiven for getting this wrong. Another trip to Foswell's apartment yields a few clues which lead Spider-man to a gangland meeting near the docks where the Green Goblin manages to get the drop on him. Even though the first chapter finishes with a cliff-hanger and is continued the following month, it still ends with “The End”, like every other issue. I doubt that fooled anyone though! Even though earlier Spider-man issues contained continuing plot-threads which moved from one issue to the next, this is the first time an issue picks up right where the last one left off. It's neat to finally have a proper two-part adventure. This will become a much more common occurrence when Ditko leaves the book and John Romita takes over. The majority of the action in the second part of the story, takes place over the first 9 pages, and there sure is a lot of it. Not only does Spider-man have to contend with a whole bunch of underworld baddies (while still in chains, even), but there's also the Green Goblin and the Crime Master too. I don't know how Ditko manages to keep things straight, but the choreography is really great, and there's a lot of impressive shots of Spider-man doing his thing. The police show up and even though there are a lot more bad guys than good guys, things get wrapped up pretty well. Somehow during all this, Spider-man actually manages to remember to set up his automatic camera, and also keep his costume from coming apart again. Only the Green Goblin and the Crime Master manage to escape. Yeah, the fight sequence at the start of issue #27 is really well handled by Ditko. I especially like the panels where Spidey pursues the Crime-Master under the waterfront pier and into the sewer system; the artwork is very atmospheric in that sequence. Also, I want to mention that it's significant that the three brave Policemen get so much credit here and are shown to be such heroes. That is very much in line with Ditko's conservative, Randian objectivism. It's also likely significant that one of them is African-American. The writing in this sequence and its heavy-handed moralistic message really reminds me of some of Ditko's later, more extreme work, such as Mr. A or Killjoy. Still focused on Foswell, and convinced he is somehow mixed up in all of this, Spider-man confronts him at the Daily Bugle, unaware that the threat of the Crime Master is about to come to an end on a nearby rooftop across the street. The Crime Master’s identity is revealed at the end of the story after he's cornered and killed by the police. Of course the Crime Master is revealed as Nick "Lucky" Lewis which is someone neither the readers nor Spidey would ever have guessed, because this is the first time he's been mentioned! (What is it with the Goblin and gangsters named Lucky anyway)? In a gangster's line of work, if they haven't been killed or incarcerated, they are lucky! 😊 I kinda like the Crime-Master turning out to be no-one we've met before, but then again, it doesn't feel terribly satisfying. He goes out in a pretty anti-climactic way too, with his being gunned down by the police mostly off-panel. But then I guess that's the point! Ditko wanted more realism and less of the traditional superhero or adventure serial tropes. To hammer the point home, Spider-Man even thinks to himself that "in real life, when a villain is unmasked, he isn't always the butler, or the one you suspected", which very much reads like Ditko's heavy-handed scripting, rather than Lee's. While the mystery of the Green Goblin's identity will continue to remain a secret, this story does pay off in another way, by letting us in on Foswell's secret. The readers eventually learn that Foswell is working undercover, in disguise, to help the police, using the alias Patch, however Spidey himself never does learn his real secret. Spidey had suspected Foswell of being either the Green Goblin or the Crime-Master. While the Crime-Master might be a logical assumption, (having a similar look and motivation to Foswell’s previous alias, the Big Man), there’s no way anyone should think Foswell was the Goblin, considering the timing. The Green Goblin first appeared only a few issues after the Big Man was unmasked and sent to prison. While it was never actually confirmed when exactly Foswell was released or how long his sentence was, presumably it wasn’t too much earlier than when he re-appeared in issue 23 which would mean he was still behind bars during the Goblin's earliest appearances. You're right, of course, about it being pretty much impossible to realistically suspect Foswell of being the Green Goblin. But, I like that Ditko still teases the readers with that possibility near the end of ASM #27. Peter does manage to get some good pictures out of this whole adventure, and after going through a minor bit of trouble recovering his camera, decides to go about things a bit differently this time around, selling them to the Daily Bugle’s competitor the Daily Globe. He’ll be back to selling pics to Jameson next time, but The Daily Globe and its editor Barney Bushkin will eventually return years later. Once again, I suspect this is Ditko's Randian philosophies surfacing in the comic, along with his feeling rather under-compensated by Lee when it came to his credits on Amazing Spider-Man. Overall, these are a couple of excellent issues, full of intrigue, action and drama. The cat-and-mouse-game between the Green Goblin and the Crime-Master is hugely entertaining and the structure, pacing and story-beats in these issues are really spot on. My only slight criticism of this two-parter would be that there's an awkward jump on the first page of ASM #26, with the Goblin and the Crime-Master already knowing each other and having already revealed their secret identities to one another. It sort of feels like you've skipped an issue or something. But that aside, these are two really excellent comics.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 28, 2024 11:30:15 GMT -5
I believe by the early 20s, Ditko was doing all the story and plotting with no input from Stan. They were not talking. Ditko also gave layout page breakdowns with dialog and notes to explain the stories to Stan. Although Ditko was probably doing the majority of the plotting, Stan still had plot input at this time. Ditko has stated that he was unhappy about having to do another Spidey-Torch team-up in #23, and he "protested it" by having them get in each other's way and work poorly together during the final fight with The Beetle. Yeah, as I've noted at least three times before in this thread, Lee was still able to have some input into the stories because he could pass along general plot suggestions for future issues to Ditko via Marvel's production manager Sol Brodsky (though Ditko often ignored them), and as the person writing the dialogue, he would sometimes change minor story elements or lessen some of Ditko's more extreme Randian objectivism.
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 28, 2024 12:29:51 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Ditko taking over the plotting will prove to have a down side, as the book dips in quality significantly following #28. I know, I know, everyone loves Spidey lifting the big-ass machine off of him in #33 but that's pretty much the only highlight of the end of Ditko's run. Not only do we see most issues padded with boring, drawn-out fight sequences but the scenes set at ESU make me cringe. It's obvious neither Stan nor Steve have a frickin' clue what college is like, treating it like high school on a slightly larger scale. I tend to skip #30-38 altogether in my ASM readthroughs, preferring to jump right to the first Romita issue rather than torture myself... but maybe that's just me.
Cei-U! I summon the big letdown!
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 28, 2024 12:53:38 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Ditko taking over the plotting will prove to have a down side, as the book dips in quality significantly following #28. I know, I know, everyone loves Spidey lifting the big-ass machine off of him in #33 but that's pretty much the only highlight of the end of Ditko's run. Not only do we see most issues padded with boring, drawn-out fight sequences but the scenes set at ESU make me cringe. It's obvious neither Stan nor Steve have a frickin' clue what college is like, treating it like high school on a slightly larger scale. I tend to skip #30-38 altogether in my ASM readthroughs, preferring to jump right to the first Romita issue rather than torture myself... but maybe that's just me. Cei-U! I summon the big letdown! I wouldn't go quite that far, and it's been a LONG time since I've read those issues, but I also don't entirely disagree. I will say that issues 36-38 are among the worst until well in to the 70s or 80s.
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Post by Ricky Jackson on Aug 28, 2024 13:06:46 GMT -5
I don't know if the coloring in the original issues was the same or if it was purposely changed for Marvel Tales to fit future events, but in the panels posted from the issue reprinting 27, "Norman" from the Gentleman's club and the Goblin while out of costume are both wearing the same colored suit and tie
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 28, 2024 14:29:51 GMT -5
Obviously, as the guy who ultimately had to draw the dramatic unmasking of the Green Goblin in ASM #39, after Ditko walked out, I'm sure Stan would've been very clear about the direction Ditko had intended the story to go in. ...or what he--as the writer--wanted to develop in the then-new era of Spider-Man. It could be a bit of both at work as TASM #39 was created. Oh. I understand, and I agree. Ditko's kind of creativity (while he was on TASM and after leaving Marvel) was not going to produce the Spider-Man saga to come, and with the book on the path to align with sociopolitical changes in the America of the 1960s (both subtle and larger), I find it difficult that any of his type of hypothetical stories, even the feel would have grown the popularity of the character to the degree witnessed by history.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 28, 2024 14:44:56 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 26 - 27 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 164 - 165) . Surprisingly, Marvel Tales #21 (July, 1969) strayed just as far from the original color work of TASM #26 9July, 1965) as MT #164, but #21 did move the Goblin to the right side of the cover:
Marvel Tales #22 (September, 1969) crops the cover of TASM #27 (August, 1965), and enlarges & moves the Goblin to the left side of the cover, while changing the dark blue background to white, certainly removing the mood and sense of dread captured by the original cover:
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Post by commond on Aug 28, 2024 16:12:17 GMT -5
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 28, 2024 17:04:48 GMT -5
It's been one month since I started this thread, but somehow it seems like it's been going on so much longer! This project has become a regular (and very welcome) institution around here! No one expects you to maintain this pace, but it's been a whirlwind of fun seeing you churn these out faster than we can read them! Thanks Shaxper, and everyone else who has been reading along and participating in the thread! It's been fun re-reading these stories, and doing the write-ups! I'm sure I'll eventually manage to adjust to everyone else's pace, or maybe everyone else will adjust to mine!
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Aug 28, 2024 23:44:32 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Ditko taking over the plotting will prove to have a down side, as the book dips in quality significantly following #28. I know, I know, everyone loves Spidey lifting the big-ass machine off of him in #33 but that's pretty much the only highlight of the end of Ditko's run. Not only do we see most issues padded with boring, drawn-out fight sequences but the scenes set at ESU make me cringe. It's obvious neither Stan nor Steve have a frickin' clue what college is like, treating it like high school on a slightly larger scale. I tend to skip #30-38 altogether in my ASM readthroughs, preferring to jump right to the first Romita issue rather than torture myself... but maybe that's just me. Cei-U! I summon the big letdown! I think you're being a little bit harsh on those final 10 or 11 Ditko plotted issues, but I do know what you mean. I still find an awful lot to enjoy in them, personally, with maybe only the final couple of Ditko issues being less than stellar. But I do agree that the early Lee/Romita issues feel like a definite uptick in quality.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 29, 2024 17:04:10 GMT -5
Unfortunately, Ditko taking over the plotting will prove to have a down side, as the book dips in quality significantly following #28. I know, I know, everyone loves Spidey lifting the big-ass machine off of him in #33 but that's pretty much the only highlight of the end of Ditko's run. Not only do we see most issues padded with boring, drawn-out fight sequences but the scenes set at ESU make me cringe. It's obvious neither Stan nor Steve have a frickin' clue what college is like, treating it like high school on a slightly larger scale. I tend to skip #30-38 altogether in my ASM readthroughs, preferring to jump right to the first Romita issue rather than torture myself... but maybe that's just me. Cei-U! I summon the big letdown! I think you're being a little bit harsh on those final 10 or 11 Ditko plotted issues, but I do know what you mean. I still find an awful lot to enjoy in them, personally, with maybe only the final couple of Ditko issues being less than stellar. But I do agree that the early Lee/Romita issues feel like a definite uptick in quality. I think the issues following the Master Planner arc, up until Romita starts are probably good enough when taken on their own, but one-after-the-other, they're probably the weakest five issue stretch in the whole run
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