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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 10:58:07 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 3 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 140 ) Interesting colouring changes on the Marvel Tales cover, when compared to the original. In particular, I like how Doctor Octopus isn't entirely in shadow on the new cover; the crescent of illumination on him works really well and I kinda think the Marvel Tales cover "pops" a bit more. This is one of those cases where the UPC box becomes too intrusive as they had to completely remove that bottom caption for the Marvel Tales cover! Too bad there wasn't any other way to shift things around to accommodate this while keeping all the cover text intact. How were first-time 1982 readers supposed to know that this comic was a book-length super-thriller, or that Dr. Octopus was Spider-man's most powerful foe without having to purchase and read it?
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 11:19:24 GMT -5
The first time I saw Doc Ock was in The Marvel Special Edition #1, The Spectacular Spider-Man, which reprints the battle with the Sinister Six, from Amazing Spider-Man Annual #1. There is a memorable scene of the arms reacting to mental control, breaking out of a storage locker, walking down a corridor, to Doc Ock's cell. Later, after Spidey individually fights each member (with a cool climactic splash page, for each one), he faces Octavius and his arms, acting independently from Doc's body, including chasing hi along what is either a corridor or ventilation shaft, before the final fight, with Ock and the arms, under water, in a giant tank. After going through Electro, Kraven, Vulture, Mysterio and Sandman, Doc Ock is the end of the gauntlet and it is clear he is meant to be the biggest battle. The rest of the comic featured the battle with The Lizard (which I found really creepy, since I had a fear of snakes and had seen too many dangerous alligators, in Gentle Ben), from Amazing Spidey #6 and the Molten Man, from #35, All visually stunning, especially enlarged to that Treasury Edition tabloid size. I've got that Treasury edition, and I agree the large size makes the art look great, without the cumbersome weight of recent Omnibus collections. They're all good stories, as are any from the Lee/Ditko era, though the Molten Man story seems like an odd choice. The Annual with the Sinister Six takes care of six of the most popular villains in one shot, but after that I'd say the Lizard and Green Goblin would be the next most logical choices since the cover calls it "A deluxe edition of Spidey's Greatest Foes". The Lizard story was included of course but, even though the first Green Goblin story had been reprinted in an earlier treasury, his third appearance from ASM 23 is a good standalone story which could have been used here in place of ASM 35. Even the Dr. Doom issue from ASM 5, or Spidey vs JJJ from ASM 25 would have been a good fit. Maybe they wanted to tie into the Molten Man's recent appearance in the current comics from a few months earlier? Still, I'd say his first appearance from ASM 28 would make more sense than the one they used.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Aug 3, 2024 12:10:06 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 4 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 141 ) This is easily my least favourite cover of the early Lee/Ditko run. The four-panel comic strip just seems like a clumsy and not terribly striking way of putting across what a menace the Sandman is – especially not when compared with how well Steve Ditko put across the menace of the likes of Doctor Octopus, the Vuture and Doctor Doom in these earliest issues. No major differences really in colouring on the Marvel Tales cover, but the more subdued colouring of Stan Goldberg and darker colours on Sandman from the original cover are better, I think. It's less garish or something. A terrible new foe called the Sandman terrorizes the city! How can Spider-man hope to defeat a villain made of living sand when he can't even deal with common street punks without getting hassled by the police, or even prevent his mask from getting torn during a fight? Another all-time great Marvel villain. Stan and Steve were just on such a roll at this point. Jameson has turned the whole city against Spidey, but that doesn't mean Spidey can't have a little fun. This is the first time Spidey pays a visit to Jameson's office just to mess with him, and it won't be the last time we see pranks like this Spidey pranking J. Jonah Jameson like this is such a cool element in the stories. It reminds us that for all his super-powers and daring-do, Peter is still just a kid who likes pulling stupid stunts against the grown-ups who needle him, just like his schoolmates probably do. I originally assumed that receptionist in issue 2 was Betty Brant, but it turns out it wasn't, but here she is for sure. Well, she's just Miss Brant for now. She and Peter know each other's names so the have met before apparently (if not in issue 2, then somewhere between then and now, off-panel). Miss Brant thinks of Peter as "JJ's young photographer". I don't think the actual age difference between the two has actually been narrowed down to a specific number, but it is generally accepted that she is older than Peter. Of course you could still think of someone as "young" even if they're the same age or older than you, depending on the context. So, it was later established that Peter Parker was 15-years-old when he became Spider-Man. But even without that being canon, Peter is still at high school and Betty Brant is clearly working a job, so she is definitely older than he is. I used to assume she was in her very early 20s, which kinda moves her into "cougar" territory, but after comments I've read from other members in this forum on the subject, I think that, actually, Betty is likely still a teenager herself – maybe 18 or so? She'd have to have been at least 16 years old to have left school and started working at The Daily Bugle because New York, like most States in the U.S., had compulsory education laws that required people to stay in education until they were at least 16 in the '60s. But my feeling is that she's more than just a year older than Peter. So, I think 18-19 is a good guess. Clearly there was no sex involved, but yeah…Peter definitely gets into a romantic relationship with an older woman in future issues. Sandman’s origin is told in flashbacks via a news broadcast. He’s apparently a somehwat established villain, known to the authorities, but hasn’t really faced any other super heroes yet. Even Spidey’s heard of him too. (referring to the bolded)Yes, which I think is a nice touch. It gives the reader a sense of the wider, super-powered world outside of Manhattan and suggests that this isn't just another custom-made Spider-Man adversary (though, of course, he is). It's also mildly amusing that Peter, having heard the news reports, assumes that the Sandman is a hoax before he encounters him. When relating the Sandman's history, the newscaster says he was “known as Flint Marko” before becoming the Sandman. Stories that come much later will confirm that Flint Marko wasn’t his real name. Oh really?!! I don't think I knew that. I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it appears to have been revealed in the Peter David-penned Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual #1 from 2007. I own that comic, but I must've forgotten about it revealing Sandman's true name. Ah well, every day is a school day! I like the way Sandman’s features are drawn. He looks close enough to a human guy, and could probably pass for someone with an odd complexion, but the inking style show he’s supposed to look like he’s actually made of sand. I also love how inventive Ditko gets in depicting the way in which Sandman can change his form. In particular, the series of narrow panels showing Sandman jumping off a tall building, turning into a cloud of sand on his way down, and then re-coalescing into his usual form on the pavement below is brilliant… The big fight scene occurs at MidTown High where Peter goes to school. I love that panel where Spidey comes bounding into the classroom and socks Sandman right in the kisser! There's so much kinetic energy in that panel. In fact, Ditko almost damn well draws movement in it. It's just a fantastic shot. POW!! This is also the first time Spidey sets his camera to take automatic pictures of himself, but it’s not what you’d expect. Having forgotten to take pictures of the actual fight, Spidey takes pics of himself jumping around throwing punches at a pile of regular sand which was sitting in a bucket. He justifies it to himself without a second thought, and if Jameson wants to pay for pics of Spidey punching sand, that’s his business. Peter Parker…the originator of "fake news!" By the way, I don't think you mentioned it, but this is the first issue in which Peter's classmate Liz Allan is named.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
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Post by Confessor on Aug 3, 2024 12:15:01 GMT -5
The vacuum defeat is hysterical, hopefully intentionally so. It was revealed much later that Sandman deliberately let himself get captured inside the vacuum cleaner. He says something to Spider-Man like, "you think I didn't realise that I could just send my rock-hard body out in any direction and shred the vacuum cleaner?!" Apparently, he wanted to bide his time before attacking Spider-Man again (and he knew he could escape jail any time he wanted to). One thing I just thought of to lend to the idea that Sandman was the Kirby creation. Many of the other Spidey villains at this time were animal themed. (Something J M Straczynski in his run). The Vulture, Doc Octopus, the Lizard, The Scorpion, even Kraven fits. Sandman is not. But Ditko does make the most of him visually. Where does this suggestion that Kirby created one of Spider-Man's early foes come from? The other day when you and Cei-U! mentioned it was the first time I had ever heard such a claim. I'm just curious about the source.
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Post by driver1980 on Aug 3, 2024 12:32:44 GMT -5
On the vacuum cleaner thing, I always presumed that Sandman was in a state of “limbo” inside, perhaps having difficulty reassembling. I don’t know where that came from, it just crossed my mind.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 12:42:40 GMT -5
This is easily my least favourite cover of the early Lee/Ditko run. The four-panel comic strip just seems like a clumsy and not terribly striking way of putting across what a menace the Sandman is – especially not when compared with how well Steve Ditko put across the menace of the likes of Doctor Octopus, the Vuture and Doctor Doom in these earliest issues. Oh really?!! I don't think I knew that. I just looked it up on Wikipedia and it appears to have been revealed in the Peter David-penned Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual #1 from 2007. I own that comic, but I must've forgotten about it revealing Sandman's true name. Ah well, every day is a school day! By the way, I don't think you mentioned it, but this is the first issue in which Peter's classmate Liz Allan is named. The multi-panel cover doesn't really bother me since I kind of like covers that don't try to hide the fact that they're comic book covers, and not a movie poster or pinup. That goes for word balloons on the covers too. That being said, the bottom left panel with Spidey punching through Sandman could easily have been blown up and used on its own and would have made a great cover! The revealing of Sandman's real name comes waaaaaaaaay earlier than 2007. The first issue of Marvel Team-up introduces Sandman's mother who is named "Mrs.Baker", and she refers to her son as "William". I think Amazing Spider-man 154 is the first place where both William Baker and Flint Marko are used together as alternate names for Sandman, but maybe Peter David's story is the first place to establish why he used an alias? Somehow I think it was probably mentioned earlier than that though. Maybe that issue of Marvel Two-in-one where Ben Grimm and Sandman share a drink and talk things out? Oh, and thanks for that bit about Liz Allan being named. I mentioned that she appeared but went unnamed in my first review for Amazing Fantasy 15 / Marvel Tales 137, but forgot to pay attention to where they finally got around to naming her!
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 3, 2024 13:34:57 GMT -5
Sandman's real name, William Baker, was first revealed in Marvel Team-Up #1, not the much, MUCH later Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual. Cei-U! I summon the ultimate beach bum!
EDIT: Jinx! I owe jtrw a Coke!
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 3, 2024 13:43:16 GMT -5
I don't recall. It is something I have seen for a while. And even in all the Lee/Kirby arguments, I haven't seen it disputed. If I find out, I will post it.
Maybe Kurt knows?
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 14:14:08 GMT -5
Sandman's real name, William Baker, was first revealed in Marvel Team-Up #1, not the much, MUCH later Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man Annual. Cei-U! I summon the ultimate beach bum!
EDIT: Jinx! I owe jtrw a Coke!
Consider us even Cei-U! You bailed me out by pointing out the touch-up on the receptionist's glasses in issue 2 to make her look like Betty Brant. Nice to know there's enough knowledgable Spidey-fans on this board to fill in all the things I forgot to notice or got wrong the first time around!
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 3, 2024 14:19:44 GMT -5
This is one of those cases where the UPC box becomes too intrusive as they had to completely remove that bottom caption for the Marvel Tales cover! Too bad there wasn't any other way to shift things around to accommodate this while keeping all the cover text intact. How were first-time 1982 readers supposed to know that this comic was a book-length super-thriller, or that Dr. Octopus was Spider-man's most powerful foe without having to purchase and read it? Perhaps the inset design, as used by Marvel Collectors' Item Classics (1965): Or Fantasy Masterpieces (8/1967): Marvel would go the inset cover route in the decades to follow, in the more formal presentation of Marvel Masterworks: Personally, use of the inset cover was not a problem if all of the cover details were clear enough.
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Post by Hoosier X on Aug 3, 2024 14:26:25 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 4 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 141 ) This is one of my favorite comic books ever! I go through periods where I read it over and over again. Not recently though. I first saw it in the late 1970s when I got a copy of Marvel Collector’s Item Classics #2. Such a great story! And so early in the run! It provides, in general, all the elements of Peter Parker’s life that will be examined almost every issue for the foreseeable future. 1) Home life in Forest Hills with Aunt May. 2) Pete’s school adventures with Flash Thompson and Liz Allan. 3) Parker’s work life, at the Bugle, with Jameson and Betty Brant. And 4) Pete’s adventures as Spider-Man! In addition to that, it’s just so much fun to read! The Sandman is a great character. And his debut story is a highlight of the very early Marvel stories of the early 1960s.
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 15:23:44 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 5 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 142 ) “Marked for Destruction by Dr. Doom!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): Written by Stan Lee Drawn by S. Ditko Letters S. Rosen Colors A Yanchus Plot Synopsis: Spider-man battles Dr. Doom! Comments: It’s the fifth issue, so of course Dr. Doom shows up! During his initial scheme to recruit Spidey, Doctor Doom uses more or less the same method of tuning in to the frequency of his Spider-sense that the Chameleon used a few issues back During their first encounter, Doom tricks Spidey with his robot decoy. I don't think this is the first time Doom did this, but his use of Doombot doubles will become one of his trademarks throughout the years. I’ve read all Dr. Doom’s appearances from around this time, but don’t know offhand where this one fits in. While fighting Spidey, Doom makes reference to the accident that ruined his face. What was Doom’s status at the time? Obviously the accident he refers to occurred while at University and probably would be a matter of public record, but was it commonly known outside the FF team that Dr. Doom was Victor Von Doom? or the reason he conceals his face? Plenty of scenes with the full cast, Aunt May at home, Flash and Liz at school and Jameson and Betty Brant at the Bugle. It's crazy how Stan and Steve manage to fit in all the various cast members into every story and still have so much space for the action. Even with so much going on these stories are never a chore to read through This is the first time Peter notices how attractive Betty Brant is. He interacted with her last issue, and just called her Miss Brant, showing no special interest in her. Last issue he was still trying to get a date with Liz too, (isn’t Liz supposed to be dating Flash? No wonder Flash doesn’t like this guy). Pete will become increasingly more interested in Betty over the next few issues, but he'll still have an eye for Liz. Somewhere along the line Liz develops an interest in Peter too. I'm not sure if Flash has been confirmed as Spider-man's number one fan yet, but he dresses up as Spidey to try and scare Pete. This of course results in him getting captured by Dr. Doom. Flash will wear a Spider-man outfit again in a later issue. Possibly it's intended to be the exact same costume, but then again, being the Spidey fan he is, Flash may have a closet full of them. To rescue Flash, Spider-man manages to track down Dr. Doom by swinging through the city until his spider-sense pinpoints his secret base which he guesses is using huge amounts of power. That's not really how his spider-sense is supposed to work since it usually just alerts him to danger! Then again, Dr. Doom is as dangerous as you can get! The full length stories really give the creators a chance to go wild with the action. Spider-man managing to hold off a villain as formidable as Dr. Doom on his own is quite impressive! Have Doom's previous battles thus far only been with the Fantastic Four? By the way, if the New York City Telephone Company building doesn't actually look like that in real life then someone needs to tear it down and rebuild it to look just how Ditko drew it! ... and of course, yet another guest appearance from our other favourite super-heroes. Dr. Doom is on the loose, so naturally the Fantastic Four get involved, but they arrive too late, missing all the action. They’re in a few scenes, but only shown clearly once. They've shown up in Spider-man's comic so many times in so few issues that they're practically a part of the supporting cast Notable differences in the reprint: They have to squeeze Yanchus' name into the same credit caption as Rosen's, so where the original said "Lettering", the reprint has to shorten it to "Letters". Can't believe I caught that small alteration! Too bad that original colorist Stan Goldberg's name wasn't included there at all the first time around. There’s a flashback to Doom’s last encounter with the Fantastic Four from a recent issue of their own mag. The original doesn’t mention where this occurred, but the Marvel Tales reprint offers a Marvel No-prize to anyone who can identify where the scene first appeared. There’s a Marvel Mails letters page with comments about the recent reprints. Tom Defalco is still Editor, but Linda Grant is the Assistant Editor this issue. Personal anecdotes: I bought this in the summer of 1986, around the same time I picked up a bunch of the other issues I’ve been reviewing. Dr. Doom appeared a lot in other Spider-man related stuff like the Spidey Super Stories comics and segments in The Electric Company magazine, and also on the 80s cartoons , and newspaper strip. Because of that I always considered him to be a major Spider-villain, but I was surprised to find out he really doesn’t appear too much in mainstream Spidey titles. This is probably his only interaction with Spidey until the 70s.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 3, 2024 16:11:51 GMT -5
Could be, a lot of suspension of disbelief. Peter invented the most revolutionary adhesive since Scotch Tape, and he doesn't patent it or try to market it. This is actually something that I’ve addressed a number of times. I was looking for my Manifesto on the issue and finally remembered where it was. For context This was in my write-up of The Four in the Classic Comics Christmas two years ago. “ I've long held to what Icctrombone calls "Slam Bradley's Law of Superheroes" that being that superhero comics are inherently silly and trying to make them make real-world sense just makes it more apparent that they're silly. We've seen plenty of attempts to show what would happen if there were super-heroes in real life...with greater and lesser success. But that's not really what Ellis is doing here. Ellis, I believe, is looking at super-science. And why the Marvel and DC universes CANNOT exist as they do. And I've hinted at this...but I'm just now really thinking about it. Take Pym Particles for one example. The existence of Pym Particles completely changes the nature of transportation and commerce in the world. They simply do. The ability to mass shrink items means that you transport far greater quantities in the same container. It changes the entire structure of the world. And don't tell me that they can't mass shrink things. In a very early issue of Fantastic Four Reed shrunk (whether with Pym Particles or an identical method he invented (I believe he stole them from Hank)) an entire planet's population and transported them across space in a single space-ship. You think the airplane changed the world...this turns it up to 11. Unstable Molecules. All those other super-scientific gadgets and concepts that come up all the time. The worlds of the MU or DCU should not look like our world. They can't. So why do they? Well we know why. Because readers want to be able to identify with the world. And writers tend not to actually think things through. Because Aunt May should not be living in a run down home in a very familiar suburb of NYC. It should be far closer to The Jetsons than The Honeymooners. “
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 3, 2024 17:54:58 GMT -5
Yes, ASM #5 was the first time Doom faced someone other than the FF. His appearance here falls between Fantastic Four #23 and his origin story in FF Annual #2.
Cei-U! I summon the tin-plated tyrant!
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 3, 2024 18:18:36 GMT -5
Yes, ASM #5 was the first time Doom faced someone other than the FF. His appearance here falls between Fantastic Four #23 and his origin story in FF Annual #2. Cei-U! I summon the tin-plated tyrant! Thanks. I wasn't too sure about the timing of it all without having to look up and cross-check dates. I remembered the Sub-mariner partnership from Doom's second appearance in FF#6, but wasn't really thinking of him as a superhero at that point in time.
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