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Post by kirby101 on Aug 3, 2024 18:40:28 GMT -5
Slam, you are right. And there is alot of accepting illogical stuff going on. Like criminals could make far more money using their powers legitimately.
But I think in the small things it really makes you take a step back.
We are told the great thing about these characters is how real they are, with real emotions and real problems. So when a hero acts in an unrealistic or dumb way, it makes you pause.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 3, 2024 19:25:26 GMT -5
Could be, a lot of suspension of disbelief. Peter invented the most revolutionary adhesive since Scotch Tape, and he doesn't patent it or try to market it. This is actually something that I’ve addressed a number of times. I was looking for my Manifesto on the issue and finally remembered where it was. For context This was in my write-up of The Four in the Classic Comics Christmas two years ago. “ I've long held to what Icctrombone calls "Slam Bradley's Law of Superheroes" that being that superhero comics are inherently silly and trying to make them make real-world sense just makes it more apparent that they're silly. We've seen plenty of attempts to show what would happen if there were super-heroes in real life...with greater and lesser success. But that's not really what Ellis is doing here. Ellis, I believe, is looking at super-science. And why the Marvel and DC universes CANNOT exist as they do. And I've hinted at this...but I'm just now really thinking about it. Take Pym Particles for one example. The existence of Pym Particles completely changes the nature of transportation and commerce in the world. They simply do. The ability to mass shrink items means that you transport far greater quantities in the same container. It changes the entire structure of the world. And don't tell me that they can't mass shrink things. In a very early issue of Fantastic Four Reed shrunk (whether with Pym Particles or an identical method he invented (I believe he stole them from Hank)) an entire planet's population and transported them across space in a single space-ship. You think the airplane changed the world...this turns it up to 11. Unstable Molecules. All those other super-scientific gadgets and concepts that come up all the time. The worlds of the MU or DCU should not look like our world. They can't. So why do they? Well we know why. Because readers want to be able to identify with the world. And writers tend not to actually think things through. Because Aunt May should not be living in a run down home in a very familiar suburb of NYC. It should be far closer to The Jetsons than The Honeymooners. “ No ethical superhero would ever share/sell/expose advanced technology to the world, most especially governments and commercial industries. As Steve Rogers pointed out about people (in Captain America: Civil War referencing the Accords), they have agendas, which at the base of it all, means those in power (government or industry) cannot be trusted.
One of the best running Silver Age plots regarding this subject were in the pages of Tales of Suspense (during an arc published in 1966), where Tony Stark was forced before senate sub-committee hearings regarding his Iron Man tech ("national security" demands). That was a plot leaning quite close to the way superheroes would be treated if they invented the kind of energy, weapons, propulsion systems, etc. seen in the various comics, and considering the nature of many governments, it would not be long before every hero of a certain level would be treated like a rogue agent / terrorist.
The mirror of the real world in comics was better off not having access to (or be subjected to) their advanced inventions, and that separation allowed superheroes to remain exciting and way-out in real world settings. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 3, 2024 19:45:02 GMT -5
This is actually something that I’ve addressed a number of times. I was looking for my Manifesto on the issue and finally remembered where it was. For context This was in my write-up of The Four in the Classic Comics Christmas two years ago. “ I've long held to what Icctrombone calls "Slam Bradley's Law of Superheroes" that being that superhero comics are inherently silly and trying to make them make real-world sense just makes it more apparent that they're silly. We've seen plenty of attempts to show what would happen if there were super-heroes in real life...with greater and lesser success. But that's not really what Ellis is doing here. Ellis, I believe, is looking at super-science. And why the Marvel and DC universes CANNOT exist as they do. And I've hinted at this...but I'm just now really thinking about it. Take Pym Particles for one example. The existence of Pym Particles completely changes the nature of transportation and commerce in the world. They simply do. The ability to mass shrink items means that you transport far greater quantities in the same container. It changes the entire structure of the world. And don't tell me that they can't mass shrink things. In a very early issue of Fantastic Four Reed shrunk (whether with Pym Particles or an identical method he invented (I believe he stole them from Hank)) an entire planet's population and transported them across space in a single space-ship. You think the airplane changed the world...this turns it up to 11. Unstable Molecules. All those other super-scientific gadgets and concepts that come up all the time. The worlds of the MU or DCU should not look like our world. They can't. So why do they? Well we know why. Because readers want to be able to identify with the world. And writers tend not to actually think things through. Because Aunt May should not be living in a run down home in a very familiar suburb of NYC. It should be far closer to The Jetsons than The Honeymooners. “ No ethical superhero would ever share/sell/expose advanced technology to the world, most especially governments and commercial industries. As Steve Rogers pointed out about people (in Captain America: Civil War referencing the Accords), they have agendas, which at the base of it all, means those in power (government or industry) cannot be trusted.
One of the best running Silver Age plots regarding this subject were in the pages of Tales of Suspense (during an arc published in 1966), where Tony Stark was forced before senate sub-committee hearings regarding his Iron Man tech ("national security" demands). That was a plot leaning quite close to the way superheroes would be treated if they invented the kind of energy, weapons, propulsion systems, etc. seen in the various comics, and considering the nature of many governments, it would not be long before every hero of a certain level would be treated like a rogue agent / terrorist.
The mirror of the real world in comics was better off not having access to (or be subjected to) their advanced inventions, and that separation allowed superheroes to remain exciting and way-out in real world settings. Let’s just leave it with, it’s not humanly possible to disagree with this more. |
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 3, 2024 19:58:19 GMT -5
Let’s just leave it with, it’s not humanly possible to disagree with this more. And it's not humanly possible to agree with you more.  |
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 3, 2024 21:13:42 GMT -5
Then it was pointless for anyone to spend years creating (or arguably reading) superhero comics purposely set in a mirror of the real world, as it was what they, and an increasing number of readers wanted, instead of something along the pure unreality of books such as Richie Rich or Bugs Bunny.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 3, 2024 21:51:54 GMT -5
We have advanced technology that changes the world all the time. And the way the world works, once it is out there, you can't stop others from developing it too.
Using a power or tech to become superhero or villain and not a billionaire is just a trope we accept for the books to work. (Exceptions like Wakanda and Latveria occur).
That's why I don't let these things bother me. It's the small things, when characters don't try for an obvious solution that takes me out.
Can't write a check to Spider-Man? Make Peter Parker your agent. I know, can't let people suspect.
Of course all of it falls apart of you think too hard about it.
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Post by kirby101 on Aug 3, 2024 21:57:39 GMT -5
I love these Silver Age stories, and can read them with the innocence that time requires.
I appreciate modern writers attempts to make them more"realistic. But at some point, it does run counter to the essence of the characters.
Maybe why I don't read new books from the big 2, and only read newer books without the burden of decades.
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Post by berkley on Aug 3, 2024 23:25:49 GMT -5
I don't think we have to look too far to see what people would do with superpowers if they existed in real life for the simple reason that superpowers already have existed in real life for a long time: we call it technology.
A gun is a superpower that allows you to kill someone from a distance. And we see what people do with guns and how that's worked out historically. An automobile is a superpower that allows you to travel at great speeds. And we see how that works. The internet is like the Orb of Agamotto. And so on.
I suppose there is some thinking involved - you'd have to look at the individual power and then ask how widespread it would be. In superhero comics the powers are restricted to a relatively small number of specially privileged people and not available to the public at large, so that's an important difference (and one memorably addressed by Alan Moore in Marvel/Miracle-Man).
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 4, 2024 5:13:34 GMT -5
THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN 6 (reprinted in Marvel Tales 143 )  “Face-to-Face with… the Lizard!” Credits (as they appear in the comic): Written by Stan Lee Drawn by Steve Ditko Lettered by Art Simek Colored Andy Yanchus Plot Synopsis: Spider-man goes all the way to Florida to fight the Lizard.  Comments: This issue features the debut of yet another classic Spidey foe, the Lizard. We learn he is really Dr. Curtis Connors, and meet his wife and son. Mrs. Connors reveals to Spidey via a flashback sequence that her husband was a scientist experimenting with reptiles to regrow his lost arm. The experiment is successful, until it isn't, and then he turns into the Lizard who wants to create an army of lizards to rule the world. Dr. Connors is officially the Marvel Universe's second most famous scientist who wears purple pants and turns into a green monster! There’s a short scene early on with Spider-man stopping a museum robbery by regular crooks where he gets to save Liz, but Peter is still more interested in Betty Brant. Liz develops a crush on Spider-man, but I don't think this is ever brought up again after this issue. Peter's confidence level, in and out of costume, has definitely gone up since that radioactive spider bit him. This is definitely not the same Peter Parker who could barely work up the nerve to ask out Sally in that first story a few short issues back.  The Lizard's story is a pretty unique idea for a villain, which also seems reasonable and scientifically plausible as far as super-villain origin stories go. If this wasn't a Spider-man story, I can actually see this working as just a regular good-but-forgettable horror/sci-fi story in any one of Marvel's long-running anthology titles of the time. Of course, since it is a Spider-man story, it doesn't end with Curt Connors cursed to remain a lizard-man prowling the swamps forever. The brilliant mind of Peter Parker comes in handy when it comes time to develop the antidote serum for Connors' predicament, and then it's up to Spidey to figure out a way to get the Lizard to drink it! Even though the majority of the action takes place outside New York, it still feels like a typical Spidey story and follows more or less the same great formula that we've seen these past few issues  Yet another issue goes by and Spidey still hasn’t taken any pictures of himself in action. He does manage to snap a few pics of the Lizard to sell to Jameson. Strangely, he tells Jameson that he bought them from an old Indian guide he met near the Everglades. Not sure why. Maybe he figured it’d be too troublesome to explain to JJJ how he made his way into the swamp and climbed an old Spanish fort to get them. Jameson doesn’t believe they’re real and doesn’t buy them, so I guess it doesn’t matter. This story is adapted reasonably faithfully for a segment of the 1960s Spider-man cartoon and also adapted again and updated for the premier episode of the 1990s Animated series   Notable differences in the reprint: I really like what they did with the cover. On the original, the Lizard is coloured with all purple clothing (because Marvel can never have enough purple and green bad guys, y'know). The Marvel Tales reprint corrects this so that he’s got his usual colour scheme. I prefer the reprint on this one, since the Lizard looks the way he’s supposed to. Mind you, he hangs out in a swamp so I don’t know how he manages to keep his lab coat so white. The original cover indicates "The Marvel Age of Comics is Here!", while the reprint changes this to "The Marvel Age of Comics is Back!". The Marvel Mails letters page is included again. Tom DeFalco is still editor, and Linda Grant writes a short introduction for herself as the new Assistant Editor, even though this is actually her second credited issue. Personal anecdotes: I picked this one up around 1988-1990. I saw an add in an old comic advertising a collection of early Spider-man stories that included AF 15 and ASM 1-6, so I wanted my Marvel Tales collection to at least have an uninterrupted run with those same issues. I’d seen some of the scenes in flashback from a later Marvel Tales reprint of the Lizard’s next appearance which I already had, and of course this story was adapted for the 60s Spider-man cartoon, so I was familiar with it before I read it. I was picking up the later Spider-man Classics reprints as they came out in 1993, even the stories I already read, but skipped over the Lizard reprint at the time. I probably didn’t have enough cash on me that week because I was usually picking up too many comics that I could barely afford, and figured it was okay to miss this one, since I already had the story in Marvel Tales format. For the longest time my Spider-man Classics collection had a gap which I probably didn’t fill in until sometime in the early or mid 2000s. To this day, I've probably never read this story in Spider-man Classics format, though I suspect it's pretty much like this Marvel Tales reprint just like the other Spider-man Classics issues, only with a new cover. Eventually I'll get around to reviewing the new covers on Spider-man Classics. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Aug 4, 2024 7:05:57 GMT -5
Jeez, keeping up with this thread is like trying to keep up with the Super Chief!
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 4, 2024 7:17:36 GMT -5
Jeez, keeping up with this thread is like trying to keep up with the Super Chief! I have some free time today and tomorrow, so I'm hoping to get another two reviews today, and two more tomorrow. Then one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Friday and three more over the next weekend. I'll let you all do the math if you want to figure out which issue that will take me up to, because even though it made sense as I typed it, I'm not too sure myself, and lost track counting on my fingers. I figure at some point the frequency and pace of my reviews will likely slow down, but I'm committed to seeing things through to the end and want to keep a certain momentum at first while hopefully keeping things active and as on-topic as possible |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
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Post by Confessor on Aug 4, 2024 7:39:15 GMT -5
Jeez, keeping up with this thread is like trying to keep up with the Super Chief! I have some free time today and tomorrow, so I'm hoping to get another two reviews today, and two more tomorrow. Then one on Tuesday, one on Wednesday, one on Friday and three more over the next weekend. I'll let you all do the math if you want to figure out which issue that will take me up to, because even though it made sense as I typed it, I'm not too sure myself, and lost track counting on my fingers. I figure at some point the frequency and pace of my reviews will likely slow down, but I'm committed to seeing things through to the end and want to keep a certain momentum at first while hopefully keeping things active and as on-topic as possible That's absolutely fair enough...it's your baby, after all. And I certainly admire your enthusiasm for these comics and for the task of reviewing them. But having done three lengthy review threads myself in the past, I personally like to control the flow of reviews in order to allow everyone that might want to comment on each issue to do so. I guess I just find the collaborative nature of review threads, with other members -- who are often more knowledgeable than me -- chiming in with comments, opinions or even (horrors!) corrections, to be one of the most enjoyable and illuminating aspects of them. Your mileage may vary, of course. But speaking just for myself, I do find it a tad discouraging as a participant if, when I comment on a particular issue, the review thread is already several issues down the road by that point. The last thing a successful review thread should be doing is discouraging participation from other members IMHO. But like I say, this is your project and just because I'm finding the rapid rate of reviews slightly off-putting doesn't necessarily mean anyone else is. So, you do you and don't necessarily pay any attention to me. |
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 4, 2024 7:52:37 GMT -5
That's absolutely fair enough...it's your baby, after all. And I certainly admire your enthusiasm for these comics and for the task of reviewing them. But having done three lengthy review threads myself in the past, I personally like to control the flow of reviews in order to allow everyone that might want to comment on each issue to do so. I guess I just find the collaborative nature of review threads, with other members -- who are often more knowledgeable than me -- chiming in with comments, opinions or even (horrors!) corrections, to be one of the most enjoyable and illuminating aspects of them. Your mileage may vary, of course. But speaking just for myself, I do find it a tad discouraging as a participant if, when I comment on a particular issue, the review thread is already several issues down the road by that point. The last thing a successful review thread should be doing is discouraging participation from other members IMHO. But like I say, this is your project and just because I'm finding the rapid rate of reviews slightly off-putting doesn't necessarily mean anyone else is. So, you do you and don't necessarily pay any attention to me. Good point, which I hadn't really taken in to consideration. Since you're the only one who has commented on the pace so-far I'll gladly defer to your experience. I've got no problem holding off posting the next few reviews for a bit. I'll let everyone take their time to read and comment on the last few reviews that are already there, and post the next one whenever it seems right. |
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,197
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Post by Confessor on Aug 4, 2024 8:08:01 GMT -5
Good point, which I hadn't really taken in to consideration. Since you're the only one who has commented on the pace so-far I'll gladly defer to your experience. I've got no problem holding off posting the next few reviews for a bit. I'll let everyone take their time to read and comment on the last few reviews that are already there, and post the next one whenever it seems right. Well, maybe wait to see if anyone else comments on the pace of reviews? I certainly don't want to hold the thread up, if I'm the only one who is finding the pace a little off-putting. Ultimately, it's your thread, so it's entirely your call at the end of the day. |
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Post by jtrw2024 on Aug 4, 2024 8:22:34 GMT -5
Well, maybe wait to see if anyone else comments on the pace of reviews? I certainly want to hold the thread up, if I'm the only one who is finding the pace a little off-putting. Ultimately, it's your thread, so it's entirely your call at the end of the day. Thanks Confessor. I'll wait and see how the comments on the reviews go. As long as people are still commenting on the recent reviews and keeping things active, I'm fine with slowing down the pace. Plus it gives me time to get ahead of things and work on writing the actual reviews so that they're ready to go whenever I actually do intend to post them. I'm enjoying everyone's responses to these and appreciate all the feedback. Looking forward to everyone's comments on the last few reviews. |
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