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Post by spoon on Aug 2, 2024 13:05:28 GMT -5
Another fine episode. I feel like Jeff downplayed Frank Miller's role. Miller was a comic book rock star at the time that mini series hit, and I don't think you can underestimate the impact that the limited series had on Wolverine's popularity and the elements that Miller brought to the story. With all due respect to Byrne, I don't think Wolverine begins a big deal without the Miller limited series. Someone older than myself is probably in a position to describe how much Wolverine grew in popularity under Byrne, Claremont's second run, and the first few Paul Smith issues versus after the Claremont/Miller mini-series. Under Claremont & Byrne, Wolverine connection with Japanese culture and Mariko is establish, so the mini isn't working from a blank slate. But I do have atmospherics and tone due to Miller that I can't imagine Byrne capturing. Also, things like the Honor Sword of the Clan Yashida flesh out the existing concepts. The Mariko vs. Yukio contrast is also a new thing development, but that's more of a plot complication than a transformation of Wolverine's character. I do wish we'd talked about Wolverine #10 more, but we had talked for so long at that point. It was one of the issues I re-read in the days before recording. Weapon X is an odd thing. It's very memorable because of BWS's visual style, but I don't like it transformed Wolverine as a character that much. The essentials of Wolverine being found in the woods having gone feral, and the notion of the adamantium being a mystery to him were already in existence. I really like that dynamic in part because Wolverine owes a lot to Jubilee for what she did. For me, it ties in a bit with Wolverine fatigue. Also, it's tied so much in my mind with Wolverine stabbing Rachel. Granted, Kitty was written out of the series not long after that, so she didn't have as many opportunities to react as there could have been. Sure, Kitty got angry at Logan, but her reaction should've been 50 times that. I touched on this in another post, but I think it's too bad that the contrast between Logan and Mariko was lost when she died. |
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Post by spoon on Aug 2, 2024 13:12:15 GMT -5
Good show and an interesting topic; I won't wade into the whole "who contributed what" to Wolverine debate here. I'll just address one point/question raised early on in the conversation, i.e., who Claremont's favorite X-man was. He's on record (in an interview that was - I think - printed in the X-men Chronicles magazine published by Fantaco in the early '80s) as saying it was Cyclops. Which is the right answer... Yes, Claremont definitely said that in X-Men Chronicles. Claremont's treatment of Cyclops is so different before and after X-Factor is greenlit. Scott leaving Madelyne in Alaska in X-Factor #1 essentially seems to have made him irredeemable in Claremont's mind. I think that was a lot of the fuel for Claremont's retconning Jean into being attracted to Wolverine rather than him being that annoying dude. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 15, 2024 22:24:32 GMT -5
Mariko's death in Wolverine #57 also deserved a mention. (...) But I do think I remember talking about Hama's work a bit. I mentioned it in the context of reversing or changing things that some parts of Wolverine's story. One aspect was killing Mariko, who was really different than Wolverine other love interests. Another was how his retcon of Silver Fox that IIRC disrupted Wolverine #10 in a way I didn't like. Same here. I was there, Gandalf, three thousand years ago... I truly enjoyed the way Logan's origin was revealed only piecemeal early on. It was also cool to learn things through interviews with different creators, and be able to sort of figure out what the man had gone through. The story hinted at by the fan press, interviews and letter columns was pretty much what John Byrne used in his online X-Men fanfic, Elsewhen, and I wish that's what Marvel had stuck with. Weapon X looked really good, but I truly disliked the way Logan's claws were no longer purely mechanical. I didn't care at all for the people in charge of his transformation being some shady outfit rather than the government. And I was absolutely aghast at Larry Hama saying that all we had been told about Logan was now up in the air because he suddenly had fake memory implants. BLECHH!!! Wolverine #10 was fine as it was and didn't need Silver Fox being retconned into some (not dead) Hydra agent or Sabretooth not being his dad anymore. I remember Logan reflecting on Mariko's ancestors, in the plane taking him to Japan in the first issue of his miniseries. "Me, I know my father..." he thought. Damn right! And so did we! The death of Mariko was something else I objected to even if it didn't contradict continuity. I disilked it because it was too easy a move, probably meant to make Logan a bachelor again and open the possibility of him pairing up with Jean Grey, as per many Wolverine fan's dreams. Furthermore it felt forced, and rather unfair to the character. Marvel doesn't want Logan to be engaged anymore? Fine, have Mariko leave him for good (perhaps slowly becoming a genuine gangster, as she must compromise her ethics to ensure peace in the Japanese underworld). Just killing her so the hero can gnash his teeth and feel sorry for himself for a little while is too much of what would come to be known as a "woman in refrigerator" meme. Constantly making characters' backstories more and more convoluted and absurd just doesn't work for me. Unfortunately, it's what happened to many X-Men! |
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Post by commond on Aug 16, 2024 15:50:43 GMT -5
Constantly making characters' backstories more and more convoluted and absurd just doesn't work for me. Unfortunately, it's what happened to many X-Men! I did some poking around about Wolverine stories that have happened since I dropped out of comics, and a lot has happened. Given some of it has been used in movies, I guess it counts as part of Wolverine lore now. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 16, 2024 18:35:23 GMT -5
Constantly making characters' backstories more and more convoluted and absurd just doesn't work for me. Unfortunately, it's what happened to many X-Men! I did some poking around about Wolverine stories that have happened since I dropped out of comics, and a lot has happened. Given some of it has been used in movies, I guess it counts as part of Wolverine lore now. Yeah, the Wikipedia page on Wolverine would have made me cry had I seen it in 1984. But that was two generations ago, so I guess I just have to get used to the idea!  |
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Post by Cei-U! on Aug 17, 2024 1:47:39 GMT -5
I would comment but I'm still dealing with the case of vapors George gave me when he referred to Nightcrawler as "a nothing character."
Cei-U! Oh, the pain... the pain!
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 17, 2024 6:55:15 GMT -5
I would comment but I'm still dealing with the case of vapors George gave me when he referred to Nightcrawler as "a nothing character."
Cei-U! Oh, the pain... the pain!
The only two people that like that character is you and the late Dave Cockrum. |
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Post by spoon on Aug 17, 2024 8:45:37 GMT -5
I would comment but I'm still dealing with the case of vapors George gave me when he referred to Nightcrawler as "a nothing character."
Cei-U! Oh, the pain... the pain!
The only two people that like that character is you and the late Dave Cockrum. Am I not a person? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 17, 2024 8:48:01 GMT -5
I would comment but I'm still dealing with the case of vapors George gave me when he referred to Nightcrawler as "a nothing character."
Cei-U! Oh, the pain... the pain!
The only two people that like that character is you and the late Dave Cockrum. My favorite X-Man for the fairly short period I read the book. I did prefer The Beast, but that was due to his appearances in The Avengers. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 17, 2024 9:06:21 GMT -5
The only two people that like that character is you and the late Dave Cockrum. Am I not a person? My humanity has been denied too! I loved Nightcrawler ever since I saw him in a friend's copy of a Spider-man book. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Aug 17, 2024 11:13:08 GMT -5
I would comment but I'm still dealing with the case of vapors George gave me when he referred to Nightcrawler as "a nothing character." Cei-U! Oh, the pain... the pain!
The only two people that like that character is you and the late Dave Cockrum. My second favorite X-man of all time. You're just not going to win this one, Glory Guy. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 17, 2024 12:12:11 GMT -5
She’s the better Wonder Woman.
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Post by spoon on Aug 17, 2024 12:24:10 GMT -5
She’s the better Wonder Woman. In the spirit of "Sleepwalker is Sandman done right." |
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Post by EdoBosnar on Aug 17, 2024 12:43:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I liked Nightcrawler quite a bit. And back when I first started reading the book at around issue #120, Wolverine was my least favorite member.
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Post by spoon on Aug 17, 2024 13:02:07 GMT -5
Constantly making characters' backstories more and more convoluted and absurd just doesn't work for me. Unfortunately, it's what happened to many X-Men! A shadowy past requires some significant events to be interesting. But if they make Wolverine (or whomever) the Forrest Gump of the Marvel Universe who has met everyone and done everything, that past is no longer shadowy. |
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