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Post by comicsandwho on Feb 16, 2017 2:01:26 GMT -5
The quickest 'capsule review' ever: The Marty Pasko era on SUPERMAN *1976-79, with a few in 1980) was a high point(Cary Bates was mostly writing ACTION at that point, and had more good stories than not). After Len Wein's run in '79, and a few Gerry Conway stories here and there, Bates was back doing both SUPERMAN and ACTION by 1980. This is where he seemed to run out of ideas, and the last half-dozen years of the'Julie Schwartz' era produced some rather bland stories. Around 1982-83, Marv Wolfman was writing ACTION, although I wasn't following the solo Super-books that closely by then. The much-hyped but ultimately useless 'Superman revamp of 1983' featured a few stories by Bates running between both SUPERMAN and ACTION (echoing the concurrent approach in the Batman titles by Gerry Conway). After this 'serial' approach was dropped, Wolfman returned briefly and then moved on, and Bates became the editor of THE FLASH(the other book he wrote steadily for years), with Elliot Maggin returning to SUPERMAN. As for ACTION, DC basically decided to give up on Super-continuity, and instead tried to emulate the Silver Age approach by having two or three stories per issue most of the time, mixed with only occasional full-length stories, all with a lighter, more whimsical tone which evoked the Mort Weisinger era. In that last year, before John Byrne took over, and excluding the 'farewell' issues, nothing particularly memorable happened in any Superman title. "Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow", indeed?
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Polar Bear
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Post by Polar Bear on Feb 18, 2017 15:29:20 GMT -5
I rather liked the Marty Pasko run myself. He paid great attention to the side characters, and I enjoyed the way he told darker stories while keeping Superman himself bright blue.
It's unfortunate the reviews stopped just before DC Comics Presents has that great, if intermittent, Wein/Starlin storyline introducing Mongul; that was a real high point for the series.
But hey, I tried reviewing my Bronze Age Superman run myself, and I ended up giving up after only about two years (of his comics), so I understand completely. :^)
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Post by comicsandwho on Feb 19, 2017 2:13:43 GMT -5
Pasko did some of his best work in the first few issues of DCCP, from that classic two-parter guest-starring Flash, to Superman's first-ever team-ups with Adam Strange and the Metal Men.
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Post by Cei-U! on Feb 19, 2017 11:45:12 GMT -5
Pasko did some of his best work in the first few issues of DCCP, from that classic two-parter guest-starring Flash, to Superman's first-ever team-ups with Adam Strange and the Metal Men. Nope. David Michelinie wrote the Adam Strange story and Len Wein the Metal Men team-up. They're all great stories, though. Cei-U! I summon the correct credits!
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Post by comicsandwho on Feb 19, 2017 14:47:05 GMT -5
Pasko did some of his best work in the first few issues of DCCP, from that classic two-parter guest-starring Flash, to Superman's first-ever team-ups with Adam Strange and the Metal Men. Nope. David Michelinie wrote the Adam Strange story and Len Wein the Metal Men team-up. They're all great stories, though. Cei-U! I summon the correct credits! My bad. I blame amnesia brought on by spatial confusion caused by Kaskor transplanting Earth into Rann's spot in Alpha Centauri. I summon a second coconut bump on the head!
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Post by zaku on Feb 21, 2017 7:47:28 GMT -5
I'd be so curious to hear from all those people that keep saying what unsung masterpiece Precrisis Superman was and how Byrne ruined everything, what exactly they see in it...
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 21, 2017 12:09:18 GMT -5
I'd be so curious to hear from all those people that keep saying what unsung masterpiece Precrisis Superman was and how Byrne ruined everything, what exactly they see in it... Masterpiece may be a bit strong; but, there are plenty of great stories in there. One of the elements that made it good was the use of the supporting cast, developing characters such as Steve Lombard and other people at GBS and the Planet. Elliot Maggin did much to turn Luthor from a cackling villain into a layered character, picking up on some of the Weisinger era stories and building on them. He did his best work in the Superman novels (released with the first two films), where we see Lex as a very complex character, who uses cover identities to do good, as well as aid his crimes. People forget that Superman was written exclusively for kids, still, in an era where other writers were aiming for a preteen/teen audience. Kids ate up the stories and kept coming back to Superman, until they grew older and sought more sophisticated tales. Those grand experiments aimed at the older audience had a habit of fizzling out quickly, while Superman just chugged along. I liken it to the scene in Heartbreak Ridge, where Gunny Highway takes the platoon on their morning run and they decide to show him up by sprinting on ahead. They all come to a stop and are sucking air, as Highway comes chugging by, keeping the same pace, and still moving along, without breaking a sweat. That was Superman. Greg Hatcher, in the old days of CBR (when they had real articles and columns) did a piece on what made this era great and I can't really add anything to what he said. www.cbr.com/happy-birthday-big-guy-heres-to-the-lost-years/Maybe you had to be there. One thing is for certain, though; the character pieces that tended to fill the post-Crisis Adventures of Superman owed a heck of a lot to the pre-Crisis, Bronze Age Superman, especially Bates and Maggin. Jose Delgado would have been right at home in one of their stories; same with Cat Grant. Notice, too, that when Byrne was gone, the Superman teams revived a lot of Bronze Age elements, gave them a new coat of paint, and sold the heck out of them.
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Post by dbutler69 on Feb 21, 2017 16:24:10 GMT -5
Greg Hatcher, in the old days of CBR (when they had real articles and columns) did a piece on what made this era great and I can't really add anything to what he said. www.cbr.com/happy-birthday-big-guy-heres-to-the-lost-years/Maybe you had to be there. One thing is for certain, though; the character pieces that tended to fill the post-Crisis Adventures of Superman owed a heck of a lot to the pre-Crisis, Bronze Age Superman, especially Bates and Maggin. Jose Delgado would have been right at home in one of their stories; same with Cat Grant. Notice, too, that when Byrne was gone, the Superman teams revived a lot of Bronze Age elements, gave them a new coat of paint, and sold the heck out of them. I just read that article. Very nice! I've read a smattering of Bronze Age Superman stories, but this article makes me want to pick up some more!
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Post by zaku on Feb 22, 2017 3:42:39 GMT -5
Maybe you had to be there. One thing is for certain, though; the character pieces that tended to fill the post-Crisis Adventures of Superman owed a heck of a lot to the pre-Crisis, Bronze Age Superman, especially Bates and Maggin. Jose Delgado would have been right at home in one of their stories; same with Cat Grant. Notice, too, that when Byrne was gone, the Superman teams revived a lot of Bronze Age elements, gave them a new coat of paint, and sold the heck out of them. I'm not discussing if Superman wasn't enough cool or whatever . Alan Moore, with "Supreme," has shown that you can make great stories using the Superman mythos sillier elements. I'm saying that whatever the Precrisis Superman's authors were doing, they were doing it wrong. Because according to each account that I found on Internet, sales of Superman comics just before Crisis/revamp were simply abysmal. And really,in a time where you had Claremont's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil and Wolfman's Teen Titans, why would you spend your money to read yet another story of the Lane-Superman-Land triangle???
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Feb 22, 2017 4:27:40 GMT -5
Because according to each account that I found on Internet, sales of Superman comics just before Crisis/revamp were simply abysmal. While I've never read these stories myself and have no dog in this fight, equating sales with quality is a logical fallacy. By that logic, Jim Lee's X-Men #1 was the greatest comic book of all time.
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Post by zaku on Feb 22, 2017 6:39:27 GMT -5
Because according to each account that I found on Internet, sales of Superman comics just before Crisis/revamp were simply abysmal. While I've never read these stories myself and have no dog in this fight, equating sales with quality is a logical fallacy. By that logic, Jim Lee's X-Men #1 was the greatest comic book of all time. I never talked about "quality", but whatever it needs to sell, because, you know, publishing comics it's not some kind of pro bono activity. It can be quality, some Big Name Author, gimmicks etc. And it is evident that Superman comics had none of them.
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Post by codystarbuck on Feb 22, 2017 13:12:32 GMT -5
Maybe you had to be there. One thing is for certain, though; the character pieces that tended to fill the post-Crisis Adventures of Superman owed a heck of a lot to the pre-Crisis, Bronze Age Superman, especially Bates and Maggin. Jose Delgado would have been right at home in one of their stories; same with Cat Grant. Notice, too, that when Byrne was gone, the Superman teams revived a lot of Bronze Age elements, gave them a new coat of paint, and sold the heck out of them. I'm not discussing if Superman wasn't enough cool or whatever . Alan Moore, with "Supreme," has shown that you can make great stories using the Superman mythos sillier elements. I'm saying that whatever the Precrisis Superman's authors were doing, they were doing it wrong. Because according to each account that I found on Internet, sales of Superman comics just before Crisis/revamp were simply abysmal. And really,in a time where you had Claremont's X-Men, Simonson's Thor, Miller's Daredevil and Wolfman's Teen Titans, why would you spend your money to read yet another story of the Lane-Superman-Land triangle??? So, we are basing an entire decade on a couple years of sales? In the early 80s, yes, Superman wasn't selling; but, then again, very little was selling on newsstands. More and more sales were coming from the Direct market, which was built around a nucleus of hardcore fans, not a mass market. So yes, if you narrow it down to those last couple of years, sales were bad. Batman wasn't setting the world on fire, either. DC's top selling books were New Teen Titans, Legion of Superheroes, and Firestorm. All of those books had large Direct Market followings. If we are talking Bronze Age, we are talking 1970 until about 1985, in some definitions (1982/83 in some, 1989 in others). That's a whole lot of years where sales were strong and at the top of DC's sales charts. Superman's decline in sales also matches the decline in the mass market; i.e. newsstands. Superman was a mass market title. Newsstands, as a whole, underwent a massive decline in the 70s. Publishing costs skyrocketed, while the economy went into the toilet. More and more independently owned venues, like drug stores, were bought up by corporations and rebranded. The first thing they did is start cost cutting, which in many locales included gutting their newsstands. Newsstands shrunk or were eliminated in traditional markets, like grocery stores, drug stores, and discount stores. Book stores pulled back on the titles they carried. This was the decade that the venerable Life Magazine and Saturday Evening Post bit the dust (Life was revived, later). With the loss of newsstands came a drop in sales, across the board. The Direct Market turned out to be the industry savior, as comics were sold on a non-returnable basis (except under certain conditions) and there was little waste (for publishers). Niche titles could be better marketed. They grew in influence and comics lived and died based on the tastes of the distributors and the comic shop owners. Superman was not in favor with that crowd. Neither was Archie or Richie Rich. Those were mass market favorites; but, with the loss of their presence on newsstands (and newsstands period), a generation of readers grew up without them. Harvey disappeared in the 80s (Marvel was even distributing their titles, near the end) and Archie suffered badly, though they shored up things by focusing on digests that could be sold at checkout impulse racks. The other element in this is Julie Schwartz, who continued to focus on Superman as if the newsstand was the major player, when it was declining. He was one of the entrenched editors that fought the new DC management, in his own way. He was eventually retired and the stage was set for the Byrne revamp. Before that, though, Schwartz had a lot of power because Superman brought a lot of sales, right up to the end of the 70s. Those poor pre-Crisis sales are, metaphorically, the days just before Crisis was launched. Chronologically, maybe the last 5 years. That just happens to be the same period when kids were dumped in favor of teenagers and fans, an audience that kept shrinking across the decades. As for internet stories, 99% of what appears is opinion, not fact. As for figures, it's not the numbers, it's the analysis that sets the story. Economists have proved that for generations. You can make the same set of figures tell 10 different stories, depending on the angle you use. Many of these opinion pieces have done exactly that, made the numbers fit their view. In the end, what matters are the stories and characters that speak to you, as a reader. For many of us, Superman spoke to us across the entire length of the Bronze Age and into the post-Crisis era. I read the character from the very beginning of the BA until just after the Death storyline, when I felt they were spinning their wheels; and, I had mostly shifted to the independent titles (and few superhero books). I always enjoyed the character and could usually find a good story. Sometimes it took some digging; but, I could find one.
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Polar Bear
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Post by Polar Bear on Apr 2, 2017 10:55:38 GMT -5
OK, so I'm going to start in 1976, approximately a year before Scott (Crimebuster) stopped. That'll give us a bit of crossover, so you can see the difference in our tastes & styles before I take over. I'm not sure how stressful my life'll be, so I'll just do what I can, when I can. Superman 296-299, Feb - May 1976, Who Took the Super out of Superman?This story, reprinted in 1981's The Great Superman Collection, is my single favorite multi-issue pre-Crisis Superman story. It also includes one of my ten favorite covers of all time, #298, by (of all people) Bob Oskner: Does Superman need Clark Kent? Does Clark Kent need Superman? Who is Kal-El, really? The story is extremely thought-provoking, not to mention provocative: #297, IIRC, actually got censored by editorial when it first came out, for fear it wouldn't pass muster with the CCA (I believe Lois gets a new dress on p. 13, panels 1-2 & Steve gets new dialog on panel 1). Oskner's inks over Swan are pleasing, and we get cameos from a whole bevy of Superman villains. Highest possible recommendation, 5/5 stars.
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Post by Polar Bear on Apr 2, 2017 10:57:32 GMT -5
Action 457, March 1976, "Superman's Command Performance"
Superman obeys the commands of a group of clubhouse kids without ever having met them. The mystery gets solved in a cloyingly sweet way.
Worth avoiding, 1.5/5 stars.
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Post by Polar Bear on Apr 2, 2017 11:02:30 GMT -5
Superman 300, June 1976, "Superman, 2001!"
A surprisingly good collaboration by Bates, Maggin!, Swan, & Oskner. This would've been very easy to mess up, but instead, it keeps what's central to the Superman mythos & adds new & interesting twists, making it every bit as good as the best of the 1990s "Elseworlds" Superman tales. Inspiring. 4/5 stars.
Reprinted in Superman: Past and Future.
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