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Post by zaku on Dec 20, 2022 11:16:09 GMT -5
Not sure if these work but I'll throw these out here anyway: 1959's Adventure #258: Superboy meets the young Oliver Queen and helps him master archery (Superboy has seen the future and knows Ollie is destined to become Green Arrow).I now declare this is very first Superman team-up not involving a member of the Bat-Family or depicted in an ensemble comics!
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Post by zaku on Dec 19, 2022 12:49:16 GMT -5
It seems way too late to be the case, but the first I can recall is The Flash, in WORLD'S FINEST 198, November 1970. Other characters from the Weisinger editorial wing like Aquaman and Green Arrow showed up as guests (not really team-up partners) here and there before that, but I think Mort kept Superman as isolated as possible, allowing him only in JLA, and not using anyone else's characters in his own subline of Superman Family books. When Mort left, Julius Schwartz took over WF and immediately brought in his boy, The Flash for the first non-Batman/Robin team-up. Wow! 1970??? So late??! I don't know if it meets my very vague demands, but there is a issue of Lois Lane with a cover date of July, 1969 titled The Superman - Wonder Woman Team!
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Post by zaku on Dec 19, 2022 12:42:25 GMT -5
What was Superman's first team-up with another DC hero, excluding Batman and ensemble comics like the JSA and JLA? And for Batman (also excluding Superman and ensemble comics)? It seems way too late to be the case, but the first I can recall is The Flash, in WORLD'S FINEST 198, November 1970. Other characters from the Weisinger editorial wing like Aquaman and Green Arrow showed up as guests (not really team-up partners) here and there before that, but I think Mort kept Superman as isolated as possible, allowing him only in JLA, and not using anyone else's characters in his own subline of Superman Family books. When Mort left, Julius Schwartz took over WF and immediately brought in his boy, The Flash for the first non-Batman/Robin team-up. Wow! 1970??? So late??!
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Post by zaku on Dec 18, 2022 17:12:26 GMT -5
What was Superman's first team-up with another DC hero, excluding Batman and ensemble comics like the JSA and JLA? And for Batman (also excluding Superman and ensemble comics)?
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Post by zaku on Dec 3, 2022 6:01:52 GMT -5
Ok, I've read some material on the CCA and I think I can draw some conclusions. Please tell me if I write something obviously wrong 1) after the initial adjustments (and with practically the entire crime/horror genre disappearing from the newsstands), those who remained on the market had no major problems in respecting the rules of the CCA. The annotations of this last one were almost always on marginal points (a little too much cleavage, a little too much blood, a forbidden word, etc). 2) After the initial period, and until the "infamous" story with Spider-Man and drugs, the CCA never rejected an entire story. Also because the publishing houses knew very well what the limits were to move within. It appears that the Comics Code we know today was only the version available to the general public. Publishers were given a much more detailed version of what could and could not be done. 3) It also seems that the authors didn't even mind having to respect the rules, at least until the arrival of new authors in the early 70s who wanted to write more "relevant" stories. I'm sure even the most passionate authors before then thought they were "just" writing comics for kids and there was no need to put drugs or explicit sex into the Flash or Superman stories. 4) One problem however seems to be the total arbitrariness of the CCA's decisions (whether or not something could pass really depended on who was reading that particular story that day) and the fact that there was no way to appeal the decisions made (unlike , for example, of the MPAA's film rating decisions). 5) Already in the 90s the CCA was practically a joke. I mean, the infamous Green Lantern girl put in the fridge story had the famous seal! Did I get it right?
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Wearisome
Dec 1, 2022 1:43:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by zaku on Dec 1, 2022 1:43:31 GMT -5
Like other people said it's just ridiculous that
a) Joker gets always the insanity defense, and it doesn't make sense. Yes, people rationalize this saying that the justice system in Gotham is different from ours but I'm sure that every politicians who promised the death penalty for him would be elected with a landslide b) why the heck people still live in Gotham!?!
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 6:12:44 GMT -5
You, sir, are an invaluable source of information! Thank you! All credit is due to google, my good man: "Comics Code Authority Darvin"
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 5:27:48 GMT -5
And a little more info firsthand from Laurie S. Sutton, who claims to have worked for the CCA. I worked as the Reviewer for the Comics Code in the late ’70s. I got the job by making a cold call to the CMAA listing in the Manhattan Yellow Pages. The work was pretty much benign. At least I got to read hundreds of comics before they were published! @ Rich: “I think Frank Miller once said (in an interview back in 1983) that the comics code authority was basically one guy looking at pages of comic book art.” Frank was most likely referring to Len Darvin, my boss. When I left the Code in 1979 to take a job at DC Comics, Mr. Darvin became the sole Reviewer until he retired a few years later. (Frank was my boyfriend at the time I worked at the Code. He often visited me at the office and actually met Mr. Darvin.) Source: www.comicsbeat.com/archie-drops-the-code-wertham-dead-forever/ (comments section) You, sir, are an invaluable source of information! Thank you!
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 5:23:38 GMT -5
Here is an actual CCA ruling against a Marvel comic, signed by Darvin himself, FWIW: THANK YOU! I wrote the last comment before reading your post!!! EDIT: Would you mind summarizing what it says ...? I have some difficulty reading it ...
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 5:22:49 GMT -5
So, it really depended on who read that particular story that day. And from what I read there was no way to "appeal" a decision considered unfair. I'm not sure how the CCA's board of decision-makers was made up, but assuming a representative from each major publisher was involved, maybe the representative had an opportunity to plead on its publisher's behalf before an official ruling was made? Again though, I suspect politics and human nature ruled more consistantly than any bylaws that may have been in place. Inevitably, some publishers were made examples of while others were held to very little scrutiny. It would be interesting to try to determine how many CCA sanctions were ever officially made. This is the kind of thing I wish I'd thought to ask Neal Adams while I still had the chance, as I suspect he'd know DC's number. This is why I was interested in the more "mundane" aspect of how CCA worked. For example, did they continually send back pages of comics with notes of "less cleavage" "less violence", virtually doing editorial work? How formal the whole process was ? I admit I've only read the Wikipedia page and other articles, but they are all incredibly vague on these aspects. they only talk about: 1) the disappearance of horror / crime comics in the 1950s 2) the "Spider-Man" case 3) the definitive end of the CCA Everything else is glossed over.
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 5:01:31 GMT -5
The CBLDF offers the best resource on The Comics Code that I'm familiar with, and it provides a bibliography as well. It doesn't cover all that much more than you've already expressed, but it's something. Thank you! I just read on Wikipedia this (about the Spider-Man issue): So, it really depended on who read that particular story that day. And from what I read there was no way to "appeal" a decision considered unfair.
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Post by zaku on Nov 27, 2022 3:16:37 GMT -5
Schiff's Batman Office avoided depicting any costumed supervillains in the first year under The Comics Code, presumably both because they could potentially glamorize crime (violating edict #4 of The code) and because their recurring appearances would suggest that crime doesn't always get punished (violating edict #5 of The Code) Sometimes I wonder how the CCA actually worked on the day-by-day operations. You named 2 rules but others seems to me so incredibly generic that I wonder if they didn't leave too much room for arbitrariness, like "Scenes of excessive violence shall be prohibited." Who decides when depicted violence is "excessive"? And there was the clause-catch-them-all: "All elements or techniques not specifically mentioned herein, but which are contrary to the spirit and intent of the code, and are considered violations of good taste or decency, shall be prohibited". It could literally mean anything, depending on the particular person who was judging the story that day. Was it a constant back-and-forth with publishers to retouch the comics, or did they already know how not to incur the ire of the CCA? The only case in which we read more deeply about the functioning of the Authority is in the famous Spider-Man's "drug issue" case and Stan Lee says that before that he had never had problems with the CCA because he knew "instinctively" what topics avoid, but we know that he has not always been the most reliable person on certain subjects. Could anyone suggest any sources on the subject? Should I open a thread on it?
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Post by zaku on Nov 21, 2022 2:23:27 GMT -5
The book was published in the 83 and I'm quite sure that "Kryptonite no more" or "there is must be a Superman?", for example, were already considered seminal stories. Surely not two Silver Age leftovers with some stale trick cover. The Superman form the 30s to the 70s volume for which this one was a revision of, originally came out in '71 and the 70s stories chosen for that one were ones that had just recently been published. The 30s-80s added stories but I don't think it removed any form the previous edition, so it stands the 70s stories were chosen not for what was best, but what was most recent. I have the 30s-70s volume not the 80s, so I am not sure what was added in the newer edition, but a book coming out in '71 was likely being put together through much of 70, so there wasn't a lot of 70s material to choose form at that time. -M According to the DC wiki the 70s stories published in Superman: From the 30's to the 70's are Action Comics #398: "The Pied-Piper of Steel"Superman #233: "Superman Breaks Loose" (the begin of Sand Superman saga!!!) Action Comics #399: "Superman, You're Dead... Dead... Dead"Action Comics #400: "Duel of Doom!"So, for a volume published in the 1971 I have to say they are excellent choices. In the volume Superman: From the 30's to the 80's they have removed Superman #233 and Action Comics #400 and put two stories from the 80s. I suppose to keep the same number of pages they took two stories from the 70s and put two from the 80s. Personally I would have removed some stories from the other decades that were over-represented. So for a volume that should give a 50-year vision of Superman we have: - for the 30s: 2 stories (well it makes sense)
- for the 40s: 14 stories
- for the 50s: 6 stories
- for the 60s: 2 stories
- for the 70s: 2 stories
- for the 80s: 2 stories (well, in reality, just one divided in two parts)
So it seems to me that they should have titled it "Superman, the Golden Age, plus a couple of stories from later periods as a bonus"
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Post by zaku on Nov 20, 2022 13:52:42 GMT -5
The book was published in the 83 and I'm quite sure that "Kryptonite no more" or "there is must be a Superman?", for example, were already considered seminal stories. Surely not two Silver Age leftovers with some stale trick cover. This was a mass market book, so would lean toward " typical " stories. Still a quite bizarre bunch of choices: I don't know how many golden and silver age stories, and only TWO bronze age stories. And I don't know what represents a "Typical story". The two 80s chosen stories deal with the return of Pa' Kent and it wasn't exactly a typical event for the Man of Steel.
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Post by zaku on Nov 20, 2022 12:17:46 GMT -5
Just for the sake of curiosity, are they all pre-Crisis stories? Edit: I've found the list and there aren't even the stories of which you see the covers (like Superman 233). It's a borderline scam! Edit 2: and exactly, how did they choose the stories from the seventies? They aren't famous ones ,they are not historically significant, I don't think there is even a consensus that they are among the best the period has to offer. If I had wanted to offer an overview of Superman's 50 years of history, I certainly wouldn't have chosen these! Action Comics #398Action Comics #399They are an example of what the contemporary Superman stories looked like since they came out just before the book was originally compiled without any of the hindsight you are applying critiquing the choices. -M The book was published in the 83 and I'm quite sure that "Kryptonite no more" or "there is must be a Superman?", for example, were already considered seminal stories. Surely not two Silver Age leftovers with some stale trick cover.
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