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Post by tarkintino on Jul 10, 2020 11:31:57 GMT -5
I agree about not interacting with you, as histrionics and resorting to ad hominem noise is no substitute for knowledge, and in this case, basic information about the SW films that is and always has been verifiable and accessible in every corner of the world for decades. Decades. There is no excuse to inject fan desires into an existing film series. That said, spinning information "just because" is a common problem in SW fandom, but its one I do not share. Either facts matter, or they do not, and at that point, its a free-for-all of the aforementioned "whatever I say--goes" and of course when that is rejected (which should be expected), there's the leap to personal attacks. Conversation...life does not work that way.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 11, 2020 12:27:55 GMT -5
I get what Tarkintino is saying there... but I disagree with him. My vision of post-ESB Luke is that he has learned from his duel with Vader, and that has helped him progress farther than where he was when he left Yoda. He does return and have Yoda tell him he has nothing more to teach him... while that could be simply Yoda trying to give him confidence since he knew he was dying and couldn't train him anymore, but it could also be that Yoda sensed his progress.
The taunting by the Emperor in the final duel was just that, taunting.. .he was trying to break Luke's control and turn him... that he failed to do so proves that Luke's confident proclaimation 'I am a Jedi, like my father before me' is true. One could argue the entire plot of the movie is Luke's journey to become a Jedi, so saying he fails in that leads to a decidedly different viewing experience, I'd think.
Anyway, next issue:
#65 - Golrath never forgets
Luke getting re-instated was fine.. I like that they have a grumpy curmudgeon character who doesn't like it... it just adds more life and vibrancy to the Rebellion, instead of it sometimes seeming like it's all Leia. Former Admiral Giel really becomes a solid character here... I didn't recall that, it was a nice surprise. I LOVE that we get little bios of the troopers Leia takes out, even if that is a bit contrary to what we know about them (though who's to say every trooper gets stripped of their name and history when they get recruited...)
I think it made perfect sense to worry about it immediately, both since they DID know Shira could have reported that to the Empire, and that the Empire could also stumble on it themselves. Remember as far as we're told. Shira didn't know the co-ordinates of Abra, so how could she have given it away? While I'd love to see the detail of how the Rebellion improves their security to prevent that from happening again, I'm not sure that would please everyone.
The only downside of this issue is we get another creepy Luke-Leia intimate scene.. this time they have the stereotypical interruption from the 'phone' that ends it. I'm not sure what they're going for there, but I could do without it. Otherwise, stellar issue.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 11, 2020 13:20:54 GMT -5
I also think you have to bear in mind too that, with the best will in the world, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda are both quite manipulative towards Luke in the original trilogy. They are often economical with the truth and also fairly calculated in what they tell him and when they it to him. There are a number of examples in the OT where what they say to him earlier turns out to be not entirely true or only true "from a certain point of view." I am planning a proper reply to you BTW wildfire2099, in response to your most recent musings on these issues. But I've been doing painting and decorating the last day or two, so haven't had time to properly respond. Stay tuned for transmission, Red 5.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 11, 2020 15:59:16 GMT -5
So, I think the Force "power level" that Luke is shown to possess in these post-ESB comics is basically spot on. But even in the earlier comics, I think any seeming over-powering of his abilities can easily be explained away by attributing it to his latent, but unfocused, ability with the Force. As I noted earlier, if Anakin Skywalker has the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded, then his son must also have a pretty high midi-chlorian count, I would think. Though training will naturally enhance and sharpen that latent ability, I think it's reasonable to assume that a person with such tremendous unfocused potential would be capable of Force-related feats that are seemingly beyond his skill level, in much the same way as musical prodigies have an almost instinctive grasp of how to get music out of an instrument, even though they may not have had any training on that particular instrument. Unless midichlorians are even more like mitochondria than their basic description suggests, as mitochondria are transmitted by the mother! In fact, given the size difference between a sperm and an ovum, any organelle should be predominantly maternal in origin, even if no mechanism eliminating the father's was present. But I doubt Lucas ever lost much sleep over such details. This is pure space fantasy after all. No hard science need apply! Midichlorians are the Star Wars equivalent of Marvel!s gamma rays, Star Trek's tetryon particles or the MCU's quantum (fill in the blank)..
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 11, 2020 18:30:52 GMT -5
But I doubt Lucas ever lost much sleep over such details. This is pure space fantasy after all. No hard science need apply! Well said; its the reason so many fans criticized the introduction of Midichlorians in The Phantom Menace, as it was seen as a convoluted attempt to "Star Trek-ize" the Force (i.e. apply a scientific explanation), when all that was known from the OT had its understanding and access as a spiritual / psychological process.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 11, 2020 19:07:34 GMT -5
I personally have wiped any reference to Midiclhorians from my brain... they're ONLY mentioned in Phantom Menace... in the canon in my head, It's just a quaint theory Qui-Gonn had that was incorrect
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jul 11, 2020 19:16:21 GMT -5
I personally have wiped any reference to Midiclhorians from my brain... they're ONLY mentioned in Phantom Menace... in the canon in my head, It's just a quaint theory Qui-Gonn had that was incorrect I've always chalked it up to Qui-Gonn Jinn being the Jedi equivalent of a flat-Earther, Obi-Won internally rolling his eyes at the whole thing.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 12, 2020 21:01:16 GMT -5
#66 - 'Water Bandits'
I really liked this one.. they managed to let Luke come to terms with his past a bit without actually dragging him back to Tattooine, which was nice. I liked Darial... I think she had potential, if there was a reason to keep her around. It may have been a fill in, but it fit nicely with the story and gave Luke some good development. Just one downside... how'd he fix his X-Wing?
Annual #2 'Starshine'
I agree this was a bit of a dud... as much as it was nice to see Han again, he's pretty dumb throughout the story... either he was very young when this story happened, or Michelinie just didn't have a good handle on him... best he can think of to get some spice is go and ask 30 seconds after he was there? And then, when he gets to the palace by dumb luck, why not palm the spice off the dinner table? Maybe make friends with the cook? Also the 'memory rocks' after we just had video memory rocks on another planet were weird. Never mind the planet had a stasis chamber, but no projectile weapons? How does that happen? The Y-Wing thing was annoying too,.. why are they not in the Falcon?
I don't like Infantino much, and this didn't change my mind. The girl was especially weird, she looked completely different from panel to panel in a disconcerting sorta way.
#67 -The Darker Blah.. two stinkers in a row after so many good ones? Having that lost city down there seems silly... wouldn't the rebels have checked that out already? While it was nice to see Plif do something, and seeeing R2's thoughts was neat, that didn't redeem all that much.
My biggest issue, why is the entire Rebel Alliance looking for Han? Yeah, he's useful, and I would expect the main characters (his friends) to do so, but having a full meeting of the whole Alliance seems extremely selfish of Leia, and not at all in character.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 13, 2020 10:03:19 GMT -5
OK, more catching up with replies... I'm not sure I agree Lando is 'statesman-like'....he didn't seem to have any interest in taking Bespin back over, or even helping them get straightened out, he was just content to have saved his buddy Lobot. I feel like the scene in Pariah where he tells Luke he can't possibly help him then leaves for 15 minutes to let Luke 'steal' the Falcon was a very Han thing to do. (which, if it was actually Han , would have and a scene before it with him telling Chewie to make sure he took care of the Falcon while he stayed to protect Leia or some such). We can agree to disagree though, that's fine Yeah, "statesman-like" probably wasn't the right term for what I meant. I think I mean that Lando is slightly more measured or image concious than Han, which I attribute to his having run Cloud City prior to joining the Rebellion. For example, in the scene you mention, in which he lets Luke "steal" the Falcon, I think that the fact that Lando didn't offer to go with Luke is telling and was partly motivated by a desire to protect himself and his image within the Rebellion. It gave him plausible deniability: "Hey, how was I to know Luke would steal the Falcon?" I think Han would've gone along with Luke and Chewie and consequences be damned! That, to me, is an example of how Lando is written differently to Han in the Marvel run. #63 'The Mind Spider' I LOVED the scenes at the Imperial data facility, from Luke 'poisoning' the Captain to Chewie's scene where he's dripping with Stormtroopers as Luke comes to rescue him... great stuff. This is another time where we get a bit of the Turbo-Force.. with Luke doing the Jedi mind trick from the ship. In fairness, it only worked for a second though, so I'm pretty OK with it overall. Yeah, this is a great issue and a fantastic finale to the Pariah story arc. I agree that the sequences in the Imperial data facility are brilliantly done. As far as Vader telling them to take Luke 'Dead or Alive'... I chalk them up to him assuming if measly Stormtroopers can kill him he's not a worthwhile heir, but that's just my personal interpretation . I think that's a wholly plausible explanation, actually. #64 - While this is clearly a fill in, I thought it was still pretty good. (the lack of a 'this story takes place before issue 60 is weird') Yeah, prior to issue #60 is where I have it placed this issue in my Marvel Star Wars chronology timeline. It's just a shame that it was published out of sequence, right before the epilogue of the Pariah arc, as it breaks up the momentum of that excellent story a tad. The artist did a great job on the space fight (less good on C3PO.. ugh), but overall it was fine (Definitely I agree better than Infantino) The story was a bit predictable, but it's a GOOD story, so that's fine. I actually liked Cinda, even if she was a trope-y, spunky female, I wouldn't mind seeing her again. I do like seeing the Rebel alliance recruiting people to the cause... sometimes we get too many desperate last stands and not enough of what they're supposed to be doing.. freeing the galaxy from oppression. Luke was clearly NOT overpowered here, he really struggled in the joust, when it would have been easy for him to Jedi into an easy win.. while it was a bit of a contrast with the last couple issues (where he used the force and beat a stack of Stormtroopers hand to hand), it did add to the drama. While not as good as the Pariah, I'd definitely rate it higher than 4 of 10... 6 or 7 I'd say I like this story much more than I did as a kid. I hated it when it came out. But these days I can see its merits a bit more. I just find it a bit underwhelming and unmemorable, and lacking in the art department. It's also one of those "Arthurian fairy tale in space" style stories that we got dropped into the SW series from time to time. Maybe I'm being a bit harsh giving it a 4. If you got me drunk I might revise that to a 5, but no way would I give it a 6 or 7! Oh, and to answer you question about the epics.... my concern is strictly logical Vol. 1 came out Nov. 2016... vol. 2 July 2017...vol 3 July 2018...vol 4 July 2019. No Vol 5 in 2020, or listed as coming soon... instead vol 3 of Legacy is coming out (that's the far future Dark Horse series), as well as a collection of odds and ends and some of the tales of the jedi stuff... which covers release dates out to October. maybe it'll come out in July 2021? Or November, but I'm worried Ah, I see. Gotcha. I certainly hope they carry on with it because I enjoy your comments on each issue. #65 - Golrath never forgets Luke getting re-instated was fine.. I like that they have a grumpy curmudgeon character who doesn't like it... it just adds more life and vibrancy to the Rebellion, instead of it sometimes seeming like it's all Leia. Agreed. As I think I said in my last reply, I love that Michelinie gives random Rebel footsoldiers individual character voices like that. It adds real flavour to the comic. #66 - 'Water Bandits' I really liked this one.. they managed to let Luke come to terms with his past a bit without actually dragging him back to Tattooine, which was nice. I liked Darial... I think she had potential, if there was a reason to keep her around. It may have been a fill in, but it fit nicely with the story and gave Luke some good development. Yeah, I agree. This is a great little "done-in-one" issue, that is also slightly tied into current continuity. Though it's not an "amazing" issue, it's still a very well written story, with a gripping plot and a nice conclusion. The Simonson/Palmer artwork is great too. Just one downside... how'd he fix his X-Wing? Who says he did? Luke's X-Wing wasn't completely crippled: it just had a damaged hyperdrive. In the final panel, we see Luke's ship flying away from Beheboth, but there's no indication in the comic that the hyperdrive is fixed. Maybe Luke managed to get a message to the Rebellion and the issue finishes with Luke flying up from the surface of the planet to rendezvous with Rebel rescue craft? Beheboth can't be far from Golrath, seeing as though Luke limped there in a ship without a hyperdrive, so it's likely that the Rebellion would have sent a search party back to look for him, once it became clear that he hadn't come through hyperspace with the others. Annual #2 'Starshine' I agree this was a bit of a dud... as much as it was nice to see Han again, he's pretty dumb throughout the story... either he was very young when this story happened, or Michelinie just didn't have a good handle on him... best he can think of to get some spice is go and ask 30 seconds after he was there? And then, when he gets to the palace by dumb luck, why not palm the spice off the dinner table? Maybe make friends with the cook? Also the 'memory rocks' after we just had video memory rocks on another planet were weird. Never mind the planet had a stasis chamber, but no projectile weapons? How does that happen? The Y-Wing thing was annoying too,.. why are they not in the Falcon? I don't like Infantino much, and this didn't change my mind. The girl was especially weird, she looked completely different from panel to panel in a disconcerting sorta way. Urrgghhh...yeah, not a great issue. A real letdown. #67 -The Darker Blah.. two stinkers in a row after so many good ones? Having that lost city down there seems silly... wouldn't the rebels have checked that out already? While it was nice to see Plif do something, and seeeing R2's thoughts was neat, that didn't redeem all that much. My biggest issue, why is the entire Rebel Alliance looking for Han? Yeah, he's useful, and I would expect the main characters (his friends) to do so, but having a full meeting of the whole Alliance seems extremely selfish of Leia, and not at all in character. Hey, what now?! No way would I call "The Darker" a stinker. I mean, sure, it's not the most significant or exciting story in the run, but there's a lot of humour in it and, overall, I think it's a fun issue. Teaming Chewie up with Plif and the Droids is a nice touch too because it's an unusual blend of characters and I always enjoyed it whenever the Marvel SW comic did that kind of thing. As for the entire Rebellion looking for Han, I do take your point. It is a bit strange. However, it's clear from Leia's dialogue that the whole briefing wasn't just taken up with talk of rescuing Han. That was just one part of it, albeit the most important part from the looks of it. I guess that with an important Rebel figurehead like the Princess, a General like Lando, and a famous Commander and Rebel hero like Luke Skywalker all looking for Han -- who is himself a well known hero of the Rebellion -- it's likely that significant personnel resources might be re-directed to help with the search, which would make it relevant news to the assembled Rebels. But it might just as easily have been a morale boosting announcement. As I say, Han had to have been pretty famous within the Rebellion by this time, so the news that the Rebels might be getting one of the original heroes of the Battle of Yavin back among their ranks certainly wouldn't have hurt morale.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 14, 2020 14:12:38 GMT -5
I would buy that better if they weren't willing to drum another famous commander and hero (Luke) out of the service on circumstantial evidence after he successfully completely a mission. You're not wrong about morale, though.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 14, 2020 20:26:41 GMT -5
Annual #2 'Starshine' I agree this was a bit of a dud... as much as it was nice to see Han again, he's pretty dumb throughout the story... either he was very young when this story happened, or Michelinie just didn't have a good handle on him... That was another issue; early on in this series (e.g. the solid Infantino/Goodwin era), Han was portrayed a bit closer to his screen source--more of a true rogue and not "dumb" as you observe about his characterization in this annual. You would think after several years and two movies to refer to, that characters would be tight mirrors of their film counterparts, but Michelinie was simply off. About an older post: As far as Vader telling them to take Luke 'Dead or Alive'... I chalk them up to him assuming if measly Stormtroopers can kill him he's not a worthwhile heir, but that's just my personal interpretation . After the events of TESB, I doubt Vader would give an order for any random person to kill him, since Luke was not only his son and overall legacy, but he was essentially THE prize Vader & the Emperor wanted to use toward the goal of ultimate domination. After all he (and Palpatine) invested in trying to capture and personally turn Luke, the only way Vader would allow any harm to come to Luke is from his own hand--if Luke continued to resist, as seen early in the Death Star 2 duel in Return of the Jedi, so Vader's order is out of character with the movie source. Characters acting out of character was not an uncommon issue with Marvel's Star Wars, as the Vader "dead or alive" order exemplified. Yes, despite Han's service to the Alliance, he was not going to be some urgent mission for a group waging a civil war and almost always on the run. This is the reason his rescue in ROTJ made sense in that it was--ultimately--a personal matter that did not warrant a fugitive alliance exposing themselves or committing their limited resources toward in any way.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 14, 2020 22:33:17 GMT -5
Comic writers taking characters they didn't create and spinning them in a way that seems a bit off to the rest of us IS a comic book tradition! I think I was more accepting of the Dead or Alive order than you, but otherwise I pretty much agree. I really think 'The Darker' felt more fill-in like than the actual fill ins to me. Maybe we should chalk that up to great fill ins
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 18, 2020 21:25:03 GMT -5
Finished the epic volume today.... #68 (The Search begins) and #69 (Death in the city of bone)- So many issues here. On the face, it's a good story.. if you take it at face value. If you don't know about RoTJ, or anything else. Granted, they know Han is going to Jabba, and Luke knows about Jabba, but... well, but what? Why not work that angle first? That's my main sticking point with the issue. There's no particular reason to think Jabba's not already in possession of Han, or that Han is even alive, until they check. Talking to the other bounty hunters isn't going to tell them that. As Confessor pointed out in his review... they already had a plan to go to Tatooine, so what was this escapade even accomplishing? That's my main plot issue. The contradictions of Mandalore's history (which is now quite extensive thanks for Clone Wars and Rebels) obviously didn't exist yet, so that's just one of those things. Even the saying he new Leia during the Clone Wars thing.... it wasn't established yet that the Clone Wars were a generation before. I also question that they could actually build an entire Star Wars tech fortress in a skeleton.. the interior shots don't really make sense. And why did Fenn save her when she conned him with a kiss and stole his captive? I get that she's the good guy, but I'm not sure anyone is that forgiving that fast. Then there's the fact that the guy in charge is some random alien. While I like having random aliens, having one in charge of an Imperial facility is not what should happen... they are famously against non-humans, after all, and that guy didn't exactly radiate confidence like Thrawn. That all said, it was a great story to just sit and read and not think about too much. #70-72 (Stenax saga) # 70 was very fill-inish to me, and I hate Kerry Gammill's art. I do really like Jo Duffy's Lando though, he feels much more like Lando and not Han-substitute in this story, which amused me greatly. I would like to know why Bossk and IG-88 were randomly hanging out together though, that's not clear, other than having an excuse to follow up on that fill in. I did really like the Stenax... too bad we didn't get more about them (especially how Chewie convinced them to help). I mean, grabbing that guys leg did it? Ric was interesting.. sort like a dark mirror image of Han, but I don't really need him and Dani to be recurring characters. Then there's the fact that there's no reason at all for them to have a Carbonite chamber.. there didn't seem to be any mining operations going on (the usual use of Carbonite). Then there's Leia happening to know that governor guy from the Senate... based on the fact that the Senate was HUGE, it seems unlikely she would know a random guy that was not of her political views. I guess maybe what she was saying is she was famous enough to be known? That would be alot more logical. #73 Lashbane OK, so let me get this straight... the LEADER of the rebellion, and arguably your top two pilots, get detours to pick up a random x-wing guy's flight logs? Really? I guess that makes it feel better than they called in everyone to search for Han, and I get it was 'on the way', but geez. Other than that, and that we get another cutesy alien race (who apparently turn into big giant guys), this was a pretty good story.. the contrast of Leia and Dani was really good. Hopefully at some point I'll be able to get the rest of the run, but this set of issues (Michelinie's run, really) is definitely my the best of the lot, so I'm glad I got to them
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 25, 2020 12:18:31 GMT -5
Re-reading the four-issue limited series adapting Return of the Jedi, I noticed that the four new splash pages drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz share a common theme. Neat artistic touch, which agrees with Sienkiewicz's choice of also having a common theme for the four covers.
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 25, 2020 15:06:47 GMT -5
Re-reading the four-issue limited series adapting Return of the Jedi, I noticed that the four new splash pages drawn by Bill Sienkiewicz share a common theme. Neat artistic touch, which agrees with Sienkiewicz's choice of also having a common theme for the four covers. That was an interesting choice for issue splash pages; none of the other Marvel Star Wars movie adaptations had introductory theme pages of that kind.
While on the subject of Sienkiewicz, his greatest contribution to the Marvel Star Wars experience is--
...execution strong enough to be an alternate movie poster.
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