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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 4, 2020 21:27:43 GMT -5
I finally got the 4th Epic collection (thanks, Mom!) so I thought I'd do some comments again.
On a side note, it seems like they're not going to finish the epic series, which makes me very sad... I REALLY wanted to have the series in a nice, consistent trade dress... now I'll have to either get the last Omnibus (which has almost all the rest, but also includes the UK stuff again), or be sad. I guess there's still hope, but not a whole lot.
Anyway.. so the Bespin story (#56-57):
I really am loving this creative team.. they seem to have the combination of having an handle on the characters but their own ideas that is exactly what I want to see out of the series at this point.
Confessor outlined the glaringly obvious continuity problems.. I'd also add that while Luke's force use was awesome and displayed well... Ii don't think the ability to do what he did made any sense at all... Obi-Wan couldn't do that sort of thing (if he could, they never would have had to shut the tractor beam off in the first place), and this was 20x more fine.
It also really bugged me they referred to Lobot as 'the Lobot'... I like the way they expanded on how those implants work in Rebels FAR better.
The intro to Shira Brie is a bit out of the blue... and Leia's jealously continues to be a bit creepy (and out of place at this point)... the idea of her is great though.
Essentially, I can see this story has alot of issues, but it was good enough to happily overlook them.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 4, 2020 21:36:23 GMT -5
#58 (Sundown):
I found the string of coincidences here a bit too much... from the accident that knocked out the crew to the Imperial scouts just happening to come by. R2 saving the day was fun though... and I agree Shira's 'How tragic' line was amazing.
#59 (Bazarre):
Fun one shot with Luke and Lando.. I do feel like they've just pasted Lando into Han's spot, and aren't doing much to differentiate him as a character (which later series did better), but still a fun issue. The Ferret was a fun guy that totally fits into the Star Wars universe.
The chess game annoyed me though... holograms can't get knocked over!
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 4, 2020 22:02:07 GMT -5
I'd also add that while Luke's force use was awesome and displayed well... Ii don't think the ability to do what he did made any sense at all... Obi-Wan couldn't do that sort of thing (if he could, they never would have had to shut the tractor beam off in the first place) Yeah, this series occasionally had a problem of making Luke overpowered in the Force, when his movie self was not like that in TESB and would not be in ROTJ. So, for any comic readers sort of adding Marvel's SW as part of their "head canon" continuity with the movies, over the top Force feats were completely out of place (much like any original era novel or comic having pre-TESB Luke duel Vader with any competency, when the films establish that before Dagobah, he was in no way trained enough to face Vader). Yes--its as though they thought the character was named that only as a play on "robot" as if he was a product type, not an individual with implants. It appears the creative team wanted to still play on the idea of romance between the two, which makes Leia seem utterly disloyal to the missing man she recently declared her love for. Yeah--after Valance and Domina Tagge, Shira was probably one of the best characters created for the comic. |
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Post by Calidore on Jul 5, 2020 11:52:45 GMT -5
The chess game annoyed me though... holograms can't get knocked over! Lightsabers also crash against each other rather than continuing on through. I guess the simplest explanation is that Star Wars universe technology includes the ability to solidify light. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 5, 2020 18:44:03 GMT -5
The chess game annoyed me though... holograms can't get knocked over! Lightsabers also crash against each other rather than continuing on through. I guess the simplest explanation is that Star Wars universe technology includes the ability to solidify light. That could be, although I always assumed that the lightsabers would generate some kind of very strong electromagnetic fields that would repel each other upon near contact (which might also explain the loud noise emitted when they crash against each other... the scream of tortured electrons!) |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 6, 2020 9:46:37 GMT -5
The chess game annoyed me though... holograms can't get knocked over! Lightsabers also crash against each other rather than continuing on through. I guess the simplest explanation is that Star Wars universe technology includes the ability to solidify light. True... but Lightsabers LOOK solid. The chess pieces on the Falcon clearly are not when we saw them up close.. they were more akin to the tech R2 used to project the original Leia message. It's funny... there's are quite a few good character Marvel introduced... then you've got Zahn's greatness (Admiral Thrawn, Mara Jade, etc)... yet none of the modern writers have managed it... there's Doctor Aphra, but that's about it. I guess Jaina Solo is OK, but meh. I wonder if that goes back to the writers saving their best stuff for work they retain the rights to, or if there's just a mindset that people don't want new, but rather want the familiar characters in new stories. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 7, 2020 15:47:36 GMT -5
#60: Great writing for Shira's story, and I love Simonson adding himself as the wingman... awesome. It's hard to tell with hindsight, but shouldn't Luke be suspicious of Shira at this point? I didn't like the logic of 'you can't have the co-ordinates, but Luke can go with you'.... are you telling me when you're flying the ship you have no way to access where it's going? Seems very unlikely to me.
#61: Leaving aside the nonsense that 4 fighters can cause so much trouble for a huge armada, and they have no way of figuring which ship is which, this is another great story... Shira's arc is really the best one to this point in the series for sure. I love the bits of levity (with Chewie's interrogation, and the gunners in the fleet worrying about Vader), it really balances the seriousness of things.
One thing though, should the good guys be indiscriminately killing a sentient being that's the last of his kind because it causes static? Seems a bit.. Imperial.
#62: Pariah indeed! I love how Luke had no idea anything was wrong when he got back, but I do wonder... didn't ANYONE question why Shira was in the way of Luke completing the mission? Even Luke didn't question. Luke doubting the Force feels much more like where he should be at as a Jedi, in contrast to a few issues ago in Bespin. The line with him saying his medal was looking a bit tarnished was brilliant. I also loved the 'kidnapping'... Chewie bundling Luke up and tossing him in was priceless. This is fantastic stuff.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2020 5:30:24 GMT -5
Sorry for not responding sooner wildfire2099 , just catching up now... I finally got the 4th Epic collection (thanks, Mom!)... Awwww....good ol' Mom.  On a side note, it seems like they're not going to finish the epic series, which makes me very sad... I REALLY wanted to have the series in a nice, consistent trade dress... now I'll have to either get the last Omnibus (which has almost all the rest, but also includes the UK stuff again), or be sad. I guess there's still hope, but not a whole lot. What makes you say they won't be finishing the Epic reprints? I know very little about the Epic line generally, so I don't know if something has been announced? I do wonder if perhaps sales of the SW Epic reprints in particular aren't that strong? It seems as if these old Marvel SW comics have been reprinted a lot of times in a relatively short space of time over the past 10-12 years, either by Dark Horse or Marvel itself. I wonder if they've over-saturated the market a bit? Anyway.. so the Bespin story (#56-57): I really am loving this creative team.. they seem to have the combination of having an handle on the characters but their own ideas that is exactly what I want to see out of the series at this point. Yeah, Simonson and Palmer work really, really well together on the artwork side, while Michelinie might be my favourite writer on the series (depending on which day you ask me).
Confessor outlined the glaringly obvious continuity problems.. I'd also add that while Luke's force use was awesome and displayed well... Ii don't think the ability to do what he did made any sense at all... Obi-Wan couldn't do that sort of thing (if he could, they never would have had to shut the tractor beam off in the first place), and this was 20x more fine. Hmmmm....I kinda take your point about how "fine" the force work needed would be. But there was a fair bit more to turning of the Death Star tractor beam than simply flicking a switch, as there is with the bomb primer switches here. Obi-Wan had to walk around the tractor beam control console and disable a number of different elements, even if we the cinema audience only saw the main tractor beam leaver draining power from the tractor beam. On a wider point, I disagree wholeheartedly with tarkintino's comment that the Marvel series "had a problem of making Luke overpowered in the force." I don't see much of that at all. Maybe a little bit, in the pre-ESB era, but even then, it's not a regular thing. Remember, by this point Luke Skywalker was, for all intents and purposes, a Jedi (although he didn't know it). He had undertaken weeks of training with Yoda (though it only seems like a few days in the movie, granted) and even though he broke off his training early, he had faced off against Vader and survived. Even prior to his training with Yoda, Luke was able to move small objects with the force, such as his lightsaber. When he returned to Dagobah in ROTJ, Yoda told him, "no more training do you require..."
I would also contend that Luke is almost certainly naturally stronger in the force than Obi-Wan was; remember Anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians, which resulted in him having a higher midi-chlorian count than any Jedi ever. So Luke's own midi-chlorian count must've been extremely high, given that he is Anakin's son. Luke's Grandfather was the midi-chlorians! So, he's almost certainly more powerful with the force than Obi-Wan. The intro to Shira Brie is a bit out of the blue... and Leia's jealously continues to be a bit creepy (and out of place at this point)... the idea of her is great though. To be fair, all of the "featured Rebels" in this part of the run kinda come out of nowhere because they were all introduced by Micheline, of course. That was one of the best things about his run IMHO, that Micheline began to give random Rebels (and random Imperials at times) distinct voices and personalities. Regarding Shira specifically, yes, it's clear that Luke and her have been interacting with each other a fair bit off-panel before she is introduced. #58 (Sundown): I found the string of coincidences here a bit too much... from the accident that knocked out the crew to the Imperial scouts just happening to come by. R2 saving the day was fun though... and I agree Shira's 'How tragic' line was amazing. #59 (Bazarre): Fun one shot with Luke and Lando.. I do feel like they've just pasted Lando into Han's spot, and aren't doing much to differentiate him as a character (which later series did better), but still a fun issue. The Ferret was a fun guy that totally fits into the Star Wars universe. The chess game annoyed me though... holograms can't get knocked over! "Sundown" is an issue that I tend to forget when I'm thinking about Michelinie's run, but it's a pretty damn good issue. It's quite a tense read too and the I like how it focuses on R2 and 3PO a bit more than most issues. As for Lando, I think we've disagreed about this before, but I wholeheartedly reject the suggestion that the Marvel writers simply made him a "Han Solo clone." Right from his first major appearance in the post-ESB continuity ("The Dreams of Cody Sunn-Childe"), the likes of J. M. DeMatteis, Archie Goodwin, and now David Michelinie wrote Lando as notably different to Han. Michelinie writes him as a cunning warrior, who employes his gambler's instincts to play the odds, but also gives him an air of statesman-like wisdom or maturity, due to his time as administrator of Cloud City, that is very different to Solo. As for the chess pieces that get knocked over, they are not holographic. Though Luke and Lando are clearly sat at the Falcon's holographic chess table, if you look at the artwork, these isn't the same holographic game that we saw in the first SW movie. The playing board is not attached to the table, the pieces have fixed bases on them, and the players have to physically pick the pieces up. This is clearly not the same game that we saw R2 and Chewbacca playing in Star Wars. So, that's why the pieces and the board get knocked over.  |
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2020 5:51:34 GMT -5
More catching up... #60: Great writing for Shira's story, and I love Simonson adding himself as the wingman... awesome. It's hard to tell with hindsight, but shouldn't Luke be suspicious of Shira at this point?That's an interesting question. As an 11-year-old (which I was when this story first came out) I had no suspiscions at all concerning Shira's loyalty. It's impossible for me to judge whether her betrayal would've come as such a surprise to me as an adult, because I'm not coming to these stories for the first time as an adult. But yeah, interesting question. Shira's arc is really the best one to this point in the series for sure. In terms of a multi-part story-arc, I agree.
One thing though, should the good guys be indiscriminately killing a sentient being that's the last of his kind because it causes static? Seems a bit.. Imperial. War is hell, I guess? #62: Pariah indeed! I love how Luke had no idea anything was wrong when he got back, but I do wonder... didn't ANYONE question why Shira was in the way of Luke completing the mission? Even Luke didn't question. The way I always read that sequence was that obviously Shira was attempting to prevent Luke from completing the mission, that's why her ship was between his and the ship carrying the Screamer. But it could've quite easily been a Rebel in a TIE who just happened to be ahead of Luke's. Remember, Shira's TIE never opened fire on Luke. So, I think that's why nobody questioned it. Luke doubting the Force feels much more like where he should be at as a Jedi, in contrast to a few issues ago in Bespin. Well, the key differeance here is that this is the first time since Luke was introduced to the concept of force that it has (seemingly) let him down. That would be enough to shake anyone, I think. |
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 9, 2020 6:57:26 GMT -5
On a wider point, I disagree wholeheartedly with tarkintino's comment that the Marvel series "had a problem of making Luke overpowered in the force." I don't see much of that at all. Maybe a little bit, in the pre-ESB era, but even then, it's not a regular thing. It was still inconsistent with his development in the films. By the opening of TESB, Luke struggled to call his lightsaber to him, but as you allude to, in pre-TESB comics, he was using the Force in ways beyond where he should have been. Post-TESB, Luke is half-trained, but as wildfire2099 points out, he's doing things Obi-Wan--a Jedi Master--could not (from what was presented in the films at the time). Even in Return of the Jedi, he appears to use great effort to lift Threepio--and this is after Yoda informed him that he did not need more training. Just looking at a specific ability such as Luke's when lifting objects in ROTJ; if he put that kind of effort into lifting Threepio, it sort of suggests that pre-ROTJ Luke's powers should barely be above his level at the end of TESB. About Midichlorian levels in Luke as a justification for increasing proficiency in the Force: he still needed the experience/training to understand and/or apply the Force in significant ways, and until then, he had to--or should have--had limits. This is one of the few things Attack of the Clones handled properly with Anakin: he was the Chosen One with a higher Midichlorian count than Yoda and had a decade of full-on Jedi training under his belt, but it was not enough to give him any advantage against Dooku. Training (or the need for more) had much to do with that outcome. |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 9, 2020 8:05:25 GMT -5
On a wider point, I disagree wholeheartedly with tarkintino's comment that the Marvel series "had a problem of making Luke overpowered in the force." I don't see much of that at all. Maybe a little bit, in the pre-ESB era, but even then, it's not a regular thing. It was still inconsistent with his development in the films. By the opening of TESB, Luke struggled to call his lightsaber to him, but as you allude to, in pre-TESB comics, he was using the Force in ways beyond where he should have been. Post-TESB, Luke is half-trained, but as wildfire2099 points out, he's doing things Obi-Wan--a Jedi Master--could not (from what was presented in the films at the time). Even in Return of the Jedi, he appears to use great effort to lift Threepio--and this is after Yoda informed him that he did not need more training. Just looking at a specific ability such as Luke's when lifting objects in ROTJ; if he put that kind of effort into lifting Threepio, it sort of suggests that pre-ROTJ Luke's powers should barely be above his level at the end of TESB. About Midichlorian levels in Luke as a justification for increasing proficiency in the Force: he still needed the experience/training to understand and/or apply the Force in significant ways, and until then, he had to--or should have--had limits. This is one of the few things Attack of the Clones handled properly with Anakin: he was the Chosen One with a higher Midichlorian count than Yoda and had a decade of full-on Jedi training under his belt, but it was not enough to give him any advantage against Dooku. Training (or the need for more) had much to do with that outcome. Luke is not "half trained" at all in the post-ESB continuity (although admittedly he does believe he is). By the time he left Dagobah in ESB, his training was more or less complete, as Yoda notes in ROTJ when he tells Luke, "no more training do you require..." The combination of Yoda's training on Dagobah, the learning experience afforded him by his duel with Darth Vader in Cloud City, the accumulated experience with the Force he gained between ESB and ROTJ, and Luke's own exceptional natural talent with the Force mean that he is, for all intents and purposes, already a Jedi. His defeat of Vader at the climax of ROTJ was the final proof of that. Luke's inability to call his lightsaber to him in the Wampa cave on Hoth had much more to do with his rising panic and the fact that he hasn't learned control yet (as Yoda told him in ESB, "you must learn control"), than any lack of talent with the Force. Once he relaxes, closes his eyes and becomes attuned to the Force, he is able to call his saber to him pretty easily. As for lifting C-3PO, again he closes his eyes and clears his mind, but I don't see him having any particular difficulty in lifting him. Luke's actions moving 3PO are no different to when Yoda moves Luke's X-Wing in ESB. So, I think the Force "power level" that Luke is shown to possess in these post-ESB comics is basically spot on. But even in the earlier comics, I think any seeming over-powering of his abilities can easily be explained away by attributing it to his latent, but unfocused, ability with the Force. As I noted earlier, if Anakin Skywalker has the highest midi-chlorian count ever recorded, then his son must also have a pretty high midi-chlorian count, I would think. Though training will naturally enhance and sharpen that latent ability, I think it's reasonable to assume that a person with such tremendous unfocused potential would be capable of Force-related feats that are seemingly beyond his skill level, in much the same way as musical prodigies have an almost instinctive grasp of how to get music out of an instrument, even though they may not have had any training on that particular instrument. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 9, 2020 15:26:47 GMT -5
I think in general Luke isn't overpowered, just that one scene in Bespin... other than that one (which I think even Yoda would struggle with), most of the time he's fine. I'm not sure I agree Lando is 'statesman-like'....he didn't seem to have any interest in taking Bespin back over, or even helping them get straightened out, he was just content to have saved his buddy Lobot. I feel like the scene in Pariah where he tells Luke he can't possibly help him then leaves for 15 minutes to let Luke 'steal' the Falcon was a very Han thing to do. (which, if it was actually Han , would have ahd a scene before it with him telling Chewie to make sure he took care of the Falcon while he stayed to protect Leia or some such). We can agree to disagree though, that's fine #63 'The Mind Spider' We get the truth behind Shira Brie... kinda makes me want to see more of that Imperial indoctrination program... seems like it could almost be the anti-Jedi! Nice parallel there with things in real life like the Hitler youth. Funny they still don't name the capital though.. I guess that happened later.. funny to look back on that sorta thing. I LOVED the scenes at the Imperial data facility, from Luke 'poisoning' the Captain to Chewie's scene where he's dripping with Stormtroopers as Luke comes to rescue him... great stuff. This is another time where we get a bit of the Turbo-Force.. with Luke doing the Jedi mind trick from the ship. In fairness, it only worked for a second though, so I'm pretty OK with it overall. It was nice to see Vader... the red eyes on his mask are an interesting choice. I haven't decided if I like it or not. As far as Vader telling them to take Luke 'Dead or Alive'... I chalk them up to him assuming if measly Stormtroopers can kill him he's not a worthwhile heir, but that's just my personal interpretation . I agree with you that the Falcon shouldn't be able to plow through the... structure like it did.. at least he could have knocked the dish off!.. I guess we'll chalk it up to be weak organic material. The 'Mind Spider' reminded me more of Farscape tech than Star Wars, but that's Ok, there's room for all sorts in the Galaxy.  |
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Post by tarkintino on Jul 9, 2020 20:31:22 GMT -5
Luke is not "half trained" at all in the post-ESB continuity (although admittedly he does believe he is). By the time he left Dagobah in ESB, his training was more or less complete is not complete or near it. in fact, Kenobi counter's Luke's claim of feeling the Force with: "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."Yoda tells him: "Luke! You must complete the training"..and.. "Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."
Yoda and Obi-Wan were fearful of Luke leaving because he was not at all close to being fully trained, and was at risk for falling to the dark side. Vader adds to this by plainly informing Luke: "The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."When opposing sides are essentially saying the same thing about Luke, there's can be no doubt that he was not "more or less" finished with his training. The element (and for the audience, drama) of Luke being at risk would not be there was the impression he was that close to being a full Jedi were true. Sure enough, his Cloud City experience proved he was not ready, and nearly died because of his being utterly unprepared. This places post-TESB Luke in a weakened position, not one where he's going to do things he lacked the training to achieve so soon after the events of the movie. Again, if the aforementioned Anakin in Attack of the Clones who was not only conceived by the Force, making him naturally stronger in the Force on the Midichlorian scale and in his ability to use the Force after a decade of consistent training in the Jedi Order, yet still was no match for Dooku, it certainly says TESB-Luke had even more to learn in order to even think about taking on challenges like the Sith (as Lucas intended). This means Luke should have been seen having to take the tough, slow trip of learning "on the road" before he was able to return to Dagobah, and not display powers that one would argue came from out of nowhere, if he's doing things even master Jedi like Kenobi could not. His "defeat" of Vader was not Luke in his right mind, or as a light side user, but he gave in to the dark side--the "quick and easy path", just as Vader manipulated him into doing. That was the point, hence the Emperor's chortling "Good!" and "Your hate has made you powerful" after Luke beat down his father. Luke only returned to his true self--a weaker state-- after letting go of the hatred that allowed him to defeat Vader. Luke compared to a Yoda who was a year away from passing away (if the oft-stated 1 year between TESB & ROTJ is accurate)? Remember, a Yoda some 2+ decades earlier ( Revenge of the Sith) was hurling a car-sized senate pod back at Sidous, and deflecting Sith lightning (not to mention recovering from an earlier Sith lightning attack to fight). Luke was never on that level or training or application, despite his Midichlorian level, which was evident in the effort displayed in lifting Threepio and how he crumbled under the Emperor's attack in ROTJ, and was not able to do a thing about it unlike Yoda against Dooku and Sidious. If Luke had such struggles even after receiving some formal training, not only does it call his post-TESB comic use of the Force into question, but it certainly makes any Marvel pre-TESB prowess in the Force less than consistent with the films. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jul 9, 2020 20:43:53 GMT -5
#64 - While this is clearly a fill in, I thought it was still pretty good. (the lack of a 'this story takes place before issue 60 is weird') The artist did a great job on the space fight (less good on C3PO.. ugh), but overall it was fine (Definitely I agree better than Infantino) The story was a bit predictable, but it's a GOOD story, so that's fine. I actually liked Cinda, even if she was a trope-y, spunky female, I wouldn't mind seeing her again. I do like seeing the Rebel alliance recruiting people to the cause... sometimes we get too many desperate last stands and not enough of what they're supposed to be doing.. freeing the galaxy from oppression. Luke was clearly NOT overpowered here, he really struggled in the joust, when it would have been easy for him to Jedi into an easy win.. while it was a bit of a contrast with the last couple issues (where he used the force and beat a stack of Stormtroopers hand to hand), it did add to the drama. While not as good as the Pariah, I'd definitely rate it higher than 4 of 10... 6 or 7 I'd say  Oh, and to answer you question about the epics.... my concern is strictly logical Vol. 1 came out Nov. 2016... vol. 2 July 2017...vol 3 July 2018...vol 4 July 2019. No Vol 5 in 2020, or listed as coming soon... instead vol 3 of Legacy is coming out (that's the far future Dark Horse series), as well as a collection of odds and ends and some of the tales of the jedi stuff... which covers release dates out to October. maybe it'll come out in July 2021? Or November, but I'm worried |
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Jul 10, 2020 1:12:44 GMT -5
Luke is not "half trained" at all in the post-ESB continuity (although admittedly he does believe he is). By the time he left Dagobah in ESB, his training was more or less complete is not complete or near it. in fact, Kenobi counter's Luke's claim of feeling the Force with: "But you cannot control it. This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the dark side of the Force."Yoda tells him: "Luke! You must complete the training"..and.. "Only a fully-trained Jedi Knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his Emperor. If you end your training now, if you choose the quick and easy path, as Vader did, you will become an agent of evil."
Yoda and Obi-Wan were fearful of Luke leaving because he was not at all close to being fully trained, and was at risk for falling to the dark side. Vader adds to this by plainly informing Luke: "The Force is with you, young Skywalker. But you are not a Jedi yet."When opposing sides are essentially saying the same thing about Luke, there's can be no doubt that he was not "more or less" finished with his training. The element (and for the audience, drama) of Luke being at risk would not be there was the impression he was that close to being a full Jedi were true. Sure enough, his Cloud City experience proved he was not ready, and nearly died because of his being utterly unprepared. This places post-TESB Luke in a weakened position, not one where he's going to do things he lacked the training to achieve so soon after the events of the movie. Again, if the aforementioned Anakin in Attack of the Clones who was not only conceived by the Force, making him naturally stronger in the Force on the Midichlorian scale and in his ability to use the Force after a decade of consistent training in the Jedi Order, yet still was no match for Dooku, it certainly says TESB-Luke had even more to learn in order to even think about taking on challenges like the Sith (as Lucas intended). This means Luke should have been seen having to take the tough, slow trip of learning "on the road" before he was able to return to Dagobah, and not display powers that one would argue came from out of nowhere, if he's doing things even master Jedi like Kenobi could not. His "defeat" of Vader was not Luke in his right mind, or as a light side user, but he gave in to the dark side--the "quick and easy path", just as Vader manipulated him into doing. That was the point, hence the Emperor's chortling "Good!" and "Your hate has made you powerful" after Luke beat down his father. Luke only returned to his true self--a weaker state-- after letting go of the hatred that allowed him to defeat Vader. Luke compared to a Yoda who was a year away from passing away (if the oft-stated 1 year between TESB & ROTJ is accurate)? Remember, a Yoda some 2+ decades earlier ( Revenge of the Sith) was hurling a car-sized senate pod back at Sidous, and deflecting Sith lightning (not to mention recovering from an earlier Sith lightning attack to fight). Luke was never on that level or training or application, despite his Midichlorian level, which was evident in the effort displayed in lifting Threepio and how he crumbled under the Emperor's attack in ROTJ, and was not able to do a thing about it unlike Yoda against Dooku and Sidious. If Luke had such struggles even after receiving some formal training, not only does it call his post-TESB comic use of the Force into question, but it certainly makes any Marvel pre-TESB prowess in the Force less than consistent with the films. Wow! Just wow. There is so much here that is inaccurate, logically flawed, or lacking in a basic grasp of Star Wars lore and continuity that it's quite staggering. I could be here for hours arguing the toss with you about this, but... I'm really not keen to interact with you anymore in the forum. I'll PM you why. |
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