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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 2, 2015 11:37:58 GMT -5
Comics that came out in 2004 that we can add to the "Classic" comics board Avengers Disassembled #500-505 (crosses over into multiple titles) First person who calls this a "classic" is going to get my classic boot up their rear. Is it ok if I call it a "classic fail"?
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 2, 2015 11:47:10 GMT -5
First person who calls this a "classic" is going to get my classic boot up their rear. I'd rather read Bendis' New Avengers than the Cap's Kooky Quartet era. To each their own, but I really can't agree with you on this one. The New Avengers stories were not nearly good enough to justify the massive damage he did to the Avengers to enable him to set up the scenario he wanted. He killed Hawkeye (enough on its own to earn a "boo" from me), Jack of Hearts, Vision, and Ant-Man, and did a ton of damage to the Scarlet Witch that took years and retcons to undo.
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Post by dupersuper on Jan 2, 2015 23:58:42 GMT -5
Does any one else feel really old?
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Post by Spike-X on Jan 3, 2015 21:02:07 GMT -5
Little bit.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 3, 2015 21:45:17 GMT -5
Does any one else feel really old? Not because of this.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jan 4, 2015 5:55:16 GMT -5
I'd rather read Bendis' New Avengers than the Cap's Kooky Quartet era. To each their own, but I really can't agree with you on this one. The New Avengers stories were not nearly good enough to justify the massive damage he did to the Avengers to enable him to set up the scenario he wanted. He killed Hawkeye (enough on its own to earn a "boo" from me), Jack of Hearts, Vision, and Ant-Man, and did a ton of damage to the Scarlet Witch that took years and retcons to undo. I always enjoyed Bendis's work on the New Avengers, gotta remember a lot of characters "died" in "classic" books as well. As usual most you list are back, and I believe the line really needed a shot of life when he took over. What was the alternative, more "the Crossing"
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 4, 2015 20:07:33 GMT -5
To each their own, but I really can't agree with you on this one. The New Avengers stories were not nearly good enough to justify the massive damage he did to the Avengers to enable him to set up the scenario he wanted. He killed Hawkeye (enough on its own to earn a "boo" from me), Jack of Hearts, Vision, and Ant-Man, and did a ton of damage to the Scarlet Witch that took years and retcons to undo. I always enjoyed Bendis's work on the New Avengers, gotta remember a lot of characters "died" in "classic" books as well. As usual most you list are back, and I believe the line really needed a shot of life when he took over. What was the alternative, more "the Crossing"
No offense to you meant here, but I honestly cannot fathom how anyone enjoyed New Avengers. Despite Bendis destroying my favorite book and killing off two of my favorite characters in ridiculous ways apparently designed solely to make everyone look stupid - primarily the fans - I gave the book a try. People kept saying that you had to let Bendis develop his storyline, that he played for the long game, that everything would eventually pay off. I made the mistake of listening to this nonsense, the result of which was subjecting myself to more than two years of some of the worst superhero comics ever made. Some of the stuff he did was beyond bad, it was downright incompetent, and it led nowhere except into a cul-de-sac of self indulgence located a half yard up Bendis' posterior. I agree that some of the stuff that preceded Disassembled was really bad, but The Crossing ended in 1995. New Avengers started in 2004. The bulk of the nine years in between consisted of Kurt Busiek and George Perez's run on the book, which ranged from good to incredible. Busiek's last issue was in 2002, just two and a half years before New Avengers #1 came out. So it's hardly as if it had been a long time since Avengers had been good. The book could have used a "shot of life" after the crapfest that was Chuck Austen's run, but instead Bendis gave it a lethal injection. I should probably thank him, though, as it ultimately freed me from needing to care about the Marvel Universe, which has saved me from reading any number of other terrible stories over the past several years.
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Post by coke & comics on Jan 4, 2015 21:38:13 GMT -5
Comics that came out in 2004 that we can add to the "Classic" comics board Avengers Disassembled #500-505 (crosses over into multiple titles) First person who calls this a "classic" is going to get my classic boot up their rear. "Classic" here means "old", rather than "worth existing".
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Post by coke & comics on Jan 4, 2015 21:41:26 GMT -5
To each their own, but I really can't agree with you on this one. The New Avengers stories were not nearly good enough to justify the massive damage he did to the Avengers to enable him to set up the scenario he wanted. He killed Hawkeye (enough on its own to earn a "boo" from me), Jack of Hearts, Vision, and Ant-Man, and did a ton of damage to the Scarlet Witch that took years and retcons to undo. I always enjoyed Bendis's work on the New Avengers, gotta remember a lot of characters "died" in "classic" books as well. As usual most you list are back, and I believe the line really needed a shot of life when he took over. What was the alternative, more "the Crossing" ???
Worst Avengers stories of all time: 3. Chaos (Bendis) 2. Lionheart of Avalon (Austen) 1. The Crossing (Harras, Kavanagh)
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Post by Icctrombone on Jan 4, 2015 21:58:18 GMT -5
I consider the Bendis Run to be head and shoulders above the Avengers from about 300 up, with the exception of the Busiek run. I'm an old school fan too.
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Jan 4, 2015 22:14:25 GMT -5
No offense to you meant here, but I honestly cannot fathom how anyone enjoyed New Avengers. Despite Bendis destroying my favorite book and killing off two of my favorite characters in ridiculous ways apparently designed solely to make everyone look stupid - primarily the fans - I gave the book a try. People kept saying that you had to let Bendis develop his storyline, that he played for the long game, that everything would eventually pay off. I made the mistake of listening to this nonsense, the result of which was subjecting myself to more than two years of some of the worst superhero comics ever made. Some of the stuff he did was beyond bad, it was downright incompetent, and it led nowhere except into a cul-de-sac of self indulgence located a half yard up Bendis' posterior. I agree that some of the stuff that preceded Disassembled was really bad, but The Crossing ended in 1995. New Avengers started in 2004. The bulk of the nine years in between consisted of Kurt Busiek and George Perez's run on the book, which ranged from good to incredible. Busiek's last issue was in 2002, just two and a half years before New Avengers #1 came out. So it's hardly as if it had been a long time since Avengers had been good. The book could have used a "shot of life" after the crapfest that was Chuck Austen's run, but instead Bendis gave it a lethal injection. I should probably thank him, though, as it ultimately freed me from needing to care about the Marvel Universe, which has saved me from reading any number of other terrible stories over the past several years. So mate, don't beat around the bush, do you like New Avengers or not ? Sorry man, looks like we're in the beg to differ box(ing ring). You make a valid point about him following what had been a (mainly) good solid run of Avengers books, I really didn't think that through properly. However I still believe that the book was stagnating, it seems like at the time Marvel had all these books people were getting excited about, Ultimates, Daredevil etc(O.M.D. ...sorry...sorry...I don't even know when that was being written) and Avengers needed a shot to move up to the plate as it were. Wasn't it in danger of being cancelled ? Or was that a few years before ? I dont particularly care about superheroes getting "killed" in the line of duty, they all come back eventually(although the "death" of Captain America a few years after this was like a physical blow to me), and hell, Hawkeye was back in a year or so as Ronin anyway(coincidentally I finally found out who Echo was last night after reading Daredevil). As for Wanda, she was lost to me as a favourite after all that Dark Witch crap(W.C.A. ) and the Vision fiascos. All that rubbish with her kids/not kids killed the last remaining sympathy I ever had for her. Mate they broke her long before Bendis got to her. At least if they had let him kill her for good we wouldn't have had No More Mutants or even this Axis crap-fest (maybe we should thank Bendis for trying to save us from that). I'm not saying I loved everything he did, but in general I thought the book was good. I started reading the Avengers in '78 and read most through to the late 90s. There were a lot of crap runs in there too, its just a fact of life, it throws up lemons every now and then. This wasn't one as far as I'm concerned, more like lemonade. Or maybe I'm seeing everything upside down here at the bottom of the world ...
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 4, 2015 22:49:46 GMT -5
I don't want to debate New Avengers too much, because it will inevitably lead to me flying into a berserker rage and throwing random objects out my window into the street.
But since you brought up Ronin, it's kind of a perfect example of how bad and lazy Bendis was. First, we get this overhyped "big surprise reveal" that we have to wait months for. I mean, Ronin is on the cover of issue #1, but doesn't actually show up until like #12 or something, and even then doesn't actually join the team. So we get a year of ridiculously dragged out non-stories that would make Claremont blush, all the while being assured that this Ronin thing, when they get to it, is going to blow our socks off.
Of course, people immediately guessed it was going to be Hawkeye. So, just because he wants it to be a "surprise," he randomly changes it to Echo. This is so bad on so many levels, I need to make a list:
1. There's no possible way that a busty female is Ronin. Ronin is very clearly drawn as a chiseled man on the cover of #1. Then, all of a sudden, it's a curvaceous woman? WTF. No.
2. The twist "surprise" is clearly more important than the actual plot of the story or the characters involved. Think about that. If Ronin being Hawkeye meant anything to the story, he wouldn't be able to change it, nor would he really care if people guessed it. Instead, he constructs this whole reveal simply for the gimmick of the reveal - who is being revealed and what role they play in the story (i.e. none, as it turns out) is of no actual meaning.
3. He makes the big reveal be a character that only fans of his own previous work would have ever even heard of! Not being someone who had read any previous Bendis, this reveal struck me as being tremendously egotistical, like most of his work on New Avengers, which was essentially Bendis taking his Luke/Jessica story from Alias, adding in a Spider-Man/Wolverine team-up and slapping an Avengers logo on it. At the same time, the Echo reveal also shamelessly pandered to his fanboys.
4. He then just drops Echo/Ronin from the book, waits a year and a half, and brings back Ronin, only now it's Hawkeye like he originally planned. So, again, the whole big Echo reveal was completely meaningless in every possible way, except to allow Bendis to pointlessly drag things out as far as humanly possible, which seems to be his one major writing skill.
It wasn't Hawkeye's death or the even end of the Avengers that bothered me, it was the fact that the story was terrible, and the new stories that it cleared the way for were even worse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2015 3:07:53 GMT -5
I was quite a fan of Bendis' indy work prior to his taking over Avengers, and was quite excited to see him take over for Austen, but Disassembled was a train wreck of Epic proportions. It is quite possibly Bendis' worse work ever and I have read a large portion of his oeuvre, and still consider Torso, Fire, Jinx, Powers, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, Alias,Scarlet, United States of Murder Inc. and other of his work to be quality comics, some ever outstanding, but his Avengers was nigh unreadable for me. I find the larger the powered cast and the more mainstream the book is, the less I like what Bendis does, and it does not play to his strengths as a writer and exposes his limitations in those areas.
-M
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Post by berkley on Jan 5, 2015 3:53:12 GMT -5
I don't want to debate New Avengers too much, because it will inevitably lead to me flying into a berserker rage and throwing random objects out my window into the street. But since you brought up Ronin, it's kind of a perfect example of how bad and lazy Bendis was. First, we get this overhyped "big surprise reveal" that we have to wait months for. I mean, Ronin is on the cover of issue #1, but doesn't actually show up until like #12 or something, and even then doesn't actually join the team. So we get a year of ridiculously dragged out non-stories that would make Claremont blush, all the while being assured that this Ronin thing, when they get to it, is going to blow our socks off. Of course, people immediately guessed it was going to be Hawkeye. So, just because he wants it to be a "surprise," he randomly changes it to Echo. This is so bad on so many levels, I need to make a list: 1. There's no possible way that a busty female is Ronin. Ronin is very clearly drawn as a chiseled man on the cover of #1. Then, all of a sudden, it's a curvaceous woman? WTF. No. 2. The twist "surprise" is clearly more important than the actual plot of the story or the characters involved. Think about that. If Ronin being Hawkeye meant anything to the story, he wouldn't be able to change it, nor would he really care if people guessed it. Instead, he constructs this whole reveal simply for the gimmick of the reveal - who is being revealed and what role they play in the story (i.e. none, as it turns out) is of no actual meaning. 3. He makes the big reveal be a character that only fans of his own previous work would have ever even heard of! Not being someone who had read any previous Bendis, this reveal struck me as being tremendously egotistical, like most of his work on New Avengers, which was essentially Bendis taking his Luke/Jessica story from Alias, adding in a Spider-Man/Wolverine team-up and slapping an Avengers logo on it. At the same time, the Echo reveal also shamelessly pandered to his fanboys. 4. He then just drops Echo/Ronin from the book, waits a year and a half, and brings back Ronin, only now it's Hawkeye like he originally planned. So, again, the whole big Echo reveal was completely meaningless in every possible way, except to allow Bendis to pointlessly drag things out as far as humanly possible, which seems to be his one major writing skill. It wasn't Hawkeye's death or the even end of the Avengers that bothered me, it was the fact that the story was terrible, and the new stories that it cleared the way for were even worse. I agree that all this was exactly as ridiculous as you describe, but I see it as typical more of contemporary Big 2 comics in general than of Bendis in particular - though he's such a relentless self-promoter that he's become a convenient representative of all that. This is how creative decisions seem to be made now - not by writers for story considerations, but by committees for marketing/business reasons. Not that that never happened before, but it's become so heavily weighted on that side that I find it very hard to work up any interest in the latest Marvel/DC product. The only thing that keeps the balance from tipping over altogether is the abiding affection or at least curiosity I feel for the characters I read as a kid. So I still look at the occasional preview - though come to think of it I find myself doing less and less of even that much since the Classics left CBR - but that's about as far as it goes. I don't think the modern Marvel/DC output is entirely without merit - I've even read some snatches of Bendis that I quite like - and I don't thnk the individual writers are completely cynical hacks: I believe that all of them care about writing the best stories they can write, almost all are competent craftsmen, and a few are genuinely gifted. But I do think that they're operating under a cynical system that constrains them far more closely than was the case in, say, the pre-Shooter Marvel era. Hence the absurd contortions you list - which I remember just from being a CBR frequenter - I wasn't even reading any of those series at the time. So I'll try a few individual things here and there: e.g. enjoyed the Charlie Huston Moon Knight recently, though that's now a few years old; reading Morrison's Multiversity currently; will read Ellis's Moon Knight soon; might give Hickman's Avengers a go if I like his independent stuff when I get around to trying some of that. But by and large I can tell the current stuff isn't for me.
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Post by Dizzy D on Jan 5, 2015 5:15:44 GMT -5
I was quite a fan of Bendis' indy work prior to his taking over Avengers, and was quite excited to see him take over for Austen, but Disassembled was a train wreck of Epic proportions. It is quite possibly Bendis' worse work ever and I have read a large portion of his oeuvre, and still consider Torso, Fire, Jinx, Powers, Ultimate Spider-Man, Daredevil, Alias,Scarlet, United States of Murder Inc. and other of his work to be quality comics, some ever outstanding, but his Avengers was nigh unreadable for me. I find the larger the powered cast and the more mainstream the book is, the less I like what Bendis does, and it does not play to his strengths as a writer and exposes his limitations in those areas. -M It's not just Bendis who has that problem. Waid is great on books focusing on individual characters, but I find his team books (at least those I've read (Legion, short run on X-Men, JLA) to be pretty bad. Brubaker is great on crime and spy books, but his X-Men and Avengers weren't very good. And this list is a lot longer, but those writers are the first to come to mind. The problem is that once a writer is succesful, Marvel (and to a lesser extend DC) want to promote that writer to the big titles and in case of Marvel those tend to be teambooks (the exception being Spider-Man), who usually don't fit the writing style of that writer. DC has this problem a bit with the JLA, but their big book is usually Batman (which runs into other problems, but at least Batman allows for a slightly larger variety of writing styles.) Mm.. might be an interesting list to make of writers who can do teambooks/large casts. Morrison, Abnett&Lanning (though they are not working together anymore), Giffen, Busiek are the names to come to mind.
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