|
|
Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 5, 2015 11:40:31 GMT -5
I always enjoyed Bendis's work on the New Avengers, gotta remember a lot of characters "died" in "classic" books as well. As usual most you list are back, and I believe the line really needed a shot of life when he took over. What was the alternative, more "the Crossing" 
No offense to you meant here, but I honestly cannot fathom how anyone enjoyed New Avengers. Despite Bendis destroying my favorite book and killing off two of my favorite characters in ridiculous ways apparently designed solely to make everyone look stupid - primarily the fans - I gave the book a try. People kept saying that you had to let Bendis develop his storyline, that he played for the long game, that everything would eventually pay off. I made the mistake of listening to this nonsense, the result of which was subjecting myself to more than two years of some of the worst superhero comics ever made. Some of the stuff he did was beyond bad, it was downright incompetent, and it led nowhere except into a cul-de-sac of self indulgence located a half yard up Bendis' posterior. I agree that some of the stuff that preceded Disassembled was really bad, but The Crossing ended in 1995. New Avengers started in 2004. The bulk of the nine years in between consisted of Kurt Busiek and George Perez's run on the book, which ranged from good to incredible. Busiek's last issue was in 2002, just two and a half years before New Avengers #1 came out. So it's hardly as if it had been a long time since Avengers had been good. The book could have used a "shot of life" after the crapfest that was Chuck Austen's run, but instead Bendis gave it a lethal injection. I should probably thank him, though, as it ultimately freed me from needing to care about the Marvel Universe, which has saved me from reading any number of other terrible stories over the past several years. I was going to comment, but you answered it beautifully. Thanks. The only thing I'd like to add is that I wasn't opposed to the the deaths themselves so much, as the characters sacrificed, the lame way they were killed, and what came after that they apparently needed to die for. |
|
|
|
Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 5, 2015 11:48:35 GMT -5
I don't want to debate New Avengers too much, because it will inevitably lead to me flying into a berserker rage and throwing random objects out my window into the street. But since you brought up Ronin, it's kind of a perfect example of how bad and lazy Bendis was. First, we get this overhyped "big surprise reveal" that we have to wait months for. I mean, Ronin is on the cover of issue #1, but doesn't actually show up until like #12 or something, and even then doesn't actually join the team. So we get a year of ridiculously dragged out non-stories that would make Claremont blush, all the while being assured that this Ronin thing, when they get to it, is going to blow our socks off. Of course, people immediately guessed it was going to be Hawkeye. So, just because he wants it to be a "surprise," he randomly changes it to Echo. This is so bad on so many levels, I need to make a list: 1. There's no possible way that a busty female is Ronin. Ronin is very clearly drawn as a chiseled man on the cover of #1. Then, all of a sudden, it's a curvaceous woman? WTF. No. 2. The twist "surprise" is clearly more important than the actual plot of the story or the characters involved. Think about that. If Ronin being Hawkeye meant anything to the story, he wouldn't be able to change it, nor would he really care if people guessed it. Instead, he constructs this whole reveal simply for the gimmick of the reveal - who is being revealed and what role they play in the story (i.e. none, as it turns out) is of no actual meaning. 3. He makes the big reveal be a character that only fans of his own previous work would have ever even heard of! Not being someone who had read any previous Bendis, this reveal struck me as being tremendously egotistical, like most of his work on New Avengers, which was essentially Bendis taking his Luke/Jessica story from Alias, adding in a Spider-Man/Wolverine team-up and slapping an Avengers logo on it. At the same time, the Echo reveal also shamelessly pandered to his fanboys. 4. He then just drops Echo/Ronin from the book, waits a year and a half, and brings back Ronin, only now it's Hawkeye like he originally planned. So, again, the whole big Echo reveal was completely meaningless in every possible way, except to allow Bendis to pointlessly drag things out as far as humanly possible, which seems to be his one major writing skill. It wasn't Hawkeye's death or the even end of the Avengers that bothered me, it was the fact that the story was terrible, and the new stories that it cleared the way for were even worse. Wasn't the big reveal originally supposed to be Daredevil, not Hawkeye? Because he'd said there was a big clue to the "mystery" on the cover of #1, which showed Ronin with nunchuks that everyone immediately associated with Daredevil's billy club. Then when no one was fooled, he quick changed it to Echo, which made no sense, then had Hawkeye take up the costume after Echo left, again for reasons which made no sense. At least that's how I remember it. |
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 5, 2015 22:15:20 GMT -5
As someone who looks at comics through the prism of "how does this relate to other art forms" I thought that Bendis' David Mamet's the Avengers was both really, really interesting and often hillarious - If not "good" per se. I can't think of anyone from the mainstream who has such a unique style who had such an influence on his peers since Stan Lee.
|
|
|
|
Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 5, 2015 22:19:49 GMT -5
I don't want to debate New Avengers too much, because it will inevitably lead to me flying into a berserker rage and throwing random objects out my window into the street. But since you brought up Ronin, it's kind of a perfect example of how bad and lazy Bendis was. First, we get this overhyped "big surprise reveal" that we have to wait months for. I mean, Ronin is on the cover of issue #1, but doesn't actually show up until like #12 or something, and even then doesn't actually join the team. So we get a year of ridiculously dragged out non-stories that would make Claremont blush, all the while being assured that this Ronin thing, when they get to it, is going to blow our socks off. Of course, people immediately guessed it was going to be Hawkeye. So, just because he wants it to be a "surprise," he randomly changes it to Echo. This is so bad on so many levels, I need to make a list: 1. There's no possible way that a busty female is Ronin. Ronin is very clearly drawn as a chiseled man on the cover of #1. Then, all of a sudden, it's a curvaceous woman? WTF. No. 2. The twist "surprise" is clearly more important than the actual plot of the story or the characters involved. Think about that. If Ronin being Hawkeye meant anything to the story, he wouldn't be able to change it, nor would he really care if people guessed it. Instead, he constructs this whole reveal simply for the gimmick of the reveal - who is being revealed and what role they play in the story (i.e. none, as it turns out) is of no actual meaning. 3. He makes the big reveal be a character that only fans of his own previous work would have ever even heard of! Not being someone who had read any previous Bendis, this reveal struck me as being tremendously egotistical, like most of his work on New Avengers, which was essentially Bendis taking his Luke/Jessica story from Alias, adding in a Spider-Man/Wolverine team-up and slapping an Avengers logo on it. At the same time, the Echo reveal also shamelessly pandered to his fanboys. 4. He then just drops Echo/Ronin from the book, waits a year and a half, and brings back Ronin, only now it's Hawkeye like he originally planned. So, again, the whole big Echo reveal was completely meaningless in every possible way, except to allow Bendis to pointlessly drag things out as far as humanly possible, which seems to be his one major writing skill. It wasn't Hawkeye's death or the even end of the Avengers that bothered me, it was the fact that the story was terrible, and the new stories that it cleared the way for were even worse. Not that this is going to be a huge change to your argument, but (A) Ronin was originally Daredevil, (B) Echo was not a Bendis character, and (C) Re: Point # 3 - Even if it was true, which it wasn't - have you ever read a '70s Marvel comic? Anything by Gerber, Englehart, Starlin, Claremont or any top tier writer from that period? They all had their own stable of their characters who were runnin' around in the middle of the Marvel Universe. |
|
Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
Making comics!
Posts: 3,958 
|
Post by Crimebuster on Jan 6, 2015 0:33:08 GMT -5
I don't want to debate New Avengers too much, because it will inevitably lead to me flying into a berserker rage and throwing random objects out my window into the street. But since you brought up Ronin, it's kind of a perfect example of how bad and lazy Bendis was. First, we get this overhyped "big surprise reveal" that we have to wait months for. I mean, Ronin is on the cover of issue #1, but doesn't actually show up until like #12 or something, and even then doesn't actually join the team. So we get a year of ridiculously dragged out non-stories that would make Claremont blush, all the while being assured that this Ronin thing, when they get to it, is going to blow our socks off. Of course, people immediately guessed it was going to be Hawkeye. So, just because he wants it to be a "surprise," he randomly changes it to Echo. This is so bad on so many levels, I need to make a list: 1. There's no possible way that a busty female is Ronin. Ronin is very clearly drawn as a chiseled man on the cover of #1. Then, all of a sudden, it's a curvaceous woman? WTF. No. 2. The twist "surprise" is clearly more important than the actual plot of the story or the characters involved. Think about that. If Ronin being Hawkeye meant anything to the story, he wouldn't be able to change it, nor would he really care if people guessed it. Instead, he constructs this whole reveal simply for the gimmick of the reveal - who is being revealed and what role they play in the story (i.e. none, as it turns out) is of no actual meaning. 3. He makes the big reveal be a character that only fans of his own previous work would have ever even heard of! Not being someone who had read any previous Bendis, this reveal struck me as being tremendously egotistical, like most of his work on New Avengers, which was essentially Bendis taking his Luke/Jessica story from Alias, adding in a Spider-Man/Wolverine team-up and slapping an Avengers logo on it. At the same time, the Echo reveal also shamelessly pandered to his fanboys. 4. He then just drops Echo/Ronin from the book, waits a year and a half, and brings back Ronin, only now it's Hawkeye like he originally planned. So, again, the whole big Echo reveal was completely meaningless in every possible way, except to allow Bendis to pointlessly drag things out as far as humanly possible, which seems to be his one major writing skill. It wasn't Hawkeye's death or the even end of the Avengers that bothered me, it was the fact that the story was terrible, and the new stories that it cleared the way for were even worse. Not that this is going to be a huge change to your argument, but (A) Ronin was originally Daredevil, (B) Echo was not a Bendis character, and (C) Re: Point # 3 - Even if it was true, which it wasn't - have you ever read a '70s Marvel comic? Anything by Gerber, Englehart, Starlin, Claremont or any top tier writer from that period? They all had their own stable of their characters who were runnin' around in the middle of the Marvel Universe. You're probably right about it being Daredevil, I don't remember that clearly and I certainly am not going to research it. But regarding my third point, I have read plenty of 70's Marvel and they all have one thing in common: They take care in the story, and through footnotes, to make sure readers know what's happening. If Englehart has Mantis suddenly appear in one of his comics as a big surprise, it's a treat for his fans, but there's also a caption explaining to other readers who Mantis is and why this surprise means anything. If you want to blame the complete lack of accessibility in Bendis' New Avengers and modern Marvel in general on terrible editing decisions, that's also a perfectly valid viewpoint that I would support. But whoever is responsible for it, it's bad storytelling. For what it's worth, Englehart in particular bringing his pet characters around with him is a massive pet peeve of mine; I hate it. But at least I can tell what's happening in the story when he does it. And a return to the lazy self-indulgence that the 70's degenerated into when writers became their own editors is hardly a selling point for either New Avengers in particular or modern Marvel in general! Edit: I was going to try to explain my view more, using the arc in New Avengers #16-20 as an example, but honestly, just thinking about that story is getting me really worked up. I'll just say that it is unquestionably the most egregiously terrible mainstream superhero "story" I have ever read. It's worse than Liefeld's Heroes Reborn Avengers, and it's even worse than The Crossing. And the big surprise reveal twist shock in this arc is so head-up-ass stupid that it makes the Echo reveal look downright logical.  |
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 7:23:41 GMT -5
I really enjoyed the Bendis' Avengers, though they were not without some substantial flaws, as alluded to above. I have no great problem with Disassembled - that, more than anything, brought me back into comics after 15 years mostly in the wilderness (not because it was particularly good, just that I'd started reading comics websites and heard a enough about it to intrigue me).
I've been a huge Avengers fan for years - it's the only title I ever subscribed to (though that was because it was just impossible to get in the UK at the time), but the sad reality is, an awfully large proportion of the Avengers books have been terribly written: stories that make no sense at all but act as the excuse for a big fight or a change of roster, and particularly characters, who have known and been friends for years, fighting (verbally and physically) amongst themselves for no sane reason. I gave up part way through the Stern run because it had been so bad, for so long that I just couldn't bear it any more.
Given this, I didn't so much mind the illogicalities of some of the Bendis run - there was enough there that was of interest that I could live with that and enjoy the rest
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 7:25:14 GMT -5
Of the list at the top of the thread, there's not much that I'm pining to get into the next installment of "12 Days - best single issues" - Planetary is about it.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 9:16:53 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers, IMO, they are 'Marvel Superhero Team up'. Hickman's books are the Justice League, sorta.. but certainly not Avengers. - I've never understood the anger about Avengers Dissembled.. they get dissembled every 100 issues (almost on the dot), hell, you could really consider the change from the original roster to the 'Cap's Kooky Quartet' era the first time.. how many issues have there been that are a wall of headshots that says 'Who will be the new Avengers' or some such? 4? 5? Bendis' story very closely mirrors the post-Stern blow up, which gave us the 'Jarvis- the Last Avenger' issue during Inferno. - The Ronin thing: Daredevil and Hawkeye were on everyone's lips right away.. I think that pissed Bendis off. I suspect it was supposed to be Hawkeye all along, and he himself started the DD rumors. WWE does that sort of thing all the time... and I see alot of similarities between Bendis and Vince McMahon. It's clear that Bendis wants to 'break the internet' and be talked about, and that's more important to him than a good story. -- The change to Echo was certainly for shock value, and, as Scott said, points out the uselessness of the storyline. As was said eariler though, Echo was not a Bendis character... it was Quesada, IIRC... or maybe Quesdada with Kevin Smith. She's actually a pretty cool character, but the Ronin thing made so little sense it ruined her, IMO. - While Bendis is the master of decompression, that's not what bothers me as much as that none of his characters have any character... every single good guy has the same personality under his pen(his, I assume), and it's really frustrating to read. I'm really hoping after Time Runs Out and Secret Wars, Bendis will be done with X-Men (he can focus on Guardians, I don't really care about them) and Hickman will ride off into the sunset and write crappy indy comics I can ignore. Turn the whole shooting match over to Jason Aaron and/or Al Ewing, and I'll be happy  |
|
|
|
Post by Dizzy D on Jan 7, 2015 10:06:34 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers, IMO, they are 'Marvel Superhero Team up'. Hickman's books are the Justice League, sorta.. but certainly not Avengers. - I've never understood the anger about Avengers Dissembled.. they get dissembled every 100 issues (almost on the dot), hell, you could really consider the change from the original roster to the 'Cap's Kooky Quartet' era the first time.. how many issues have there been that are a wall of headshots that says 'Who will be the new Avengers' or some such? 4? 5? Bendis' story very closely mirrors the post-Stern blow up, which gave us the 'Jarvis- the Last Avenger' issue during Inferno. - The Ronin thing: Daredevil and Hawkeye were on everyone's lips right away.. I think that pissed Bendis off. I suspect it was supposed to be Hawkeye all along, and he himself started the DD rumors. WWE does that sort of thing all the time... and I see alot of similarities between Bendis and Vince McMahon. It's clear that Bendis wants to 'break the internet' and be talked about, and that's more important to him than a good story. -- The change to Echo was certainly for shock value, and, as Scott said, points out the uselessness of the storyline. As was said eariler though, Echo was not a Bendis character... it was Quesada, IIRC... or maybe Quesdada with Kevin Smith. She's actually a pretty cool character, but the Ronin thing made so little sense it ruined her, IMO. - While Bendis is the master of decompression, that's not what bothers me as much as that none of his characters have any character... every single good guy has the same personality under his pen(his, I assume), and it's really frustrating to read. I'm really hoping after Time Runs Out and Secret Wars, Bendis will be done with X-Men (he can focus on Guardians, I don't really care about them) and Hickman will ride off into the sunset and write crappy indy comics I can ignore. Turn the whole shooting match over to Jason Aaron and/or Al Ewing, and I'll be happy Echo was a David Mack character IIRC. |
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 10:35:26 GMT -5
Was it Mack's run? I know it was Quesada on art, and, at the time, he was super ra-ra about it. Could be Mack.. pretty decent comics, as I recall.
|
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 10:39:37 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers I see this comment a lot - the Bendisvengers aren't "real" Avengers - but I just don't get it. Virtually every hero in the Marvel universe has been an Avenger at some point, what is it about the Bendis version that makes them less "real" than the Lee, Thomas, Conway, Englehart, Michelinie, Shooter, Stern etc Avengers? |
|
|
|
Post by paulie on Jan 7, 2015 10:47:00 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers, IMO, they are 'Marvel Superhero Team up'. Hickman's books are the Justice League, sorta.. but certainly not Avengers. - I've never understood the anger about Avengers Dissembled.. they get dissembled every 100 issues (almost on the dot), hell, you could really consider the change from the original roster to the 'Cap's Kooky Quartet' era the first time.. how many issues have there been that are a wall of headshots that says 'Who will be the new Avengers' or some such? 4? 5? Bendis' story very closely mirrors the post-Stern blow up, which gave us the 'Jarvis- the Last Avenger' issue during Inferno. - The Ronin thing: Daredevil and Hawkeye were on everyone's lips right away.. I think that pissed Bendis off. I suspect it was supposed to be Hawkeye all along, and he himself started the DD rumors. WWE does that sort of thing all the time... and I see alot of similarities between Bendis and Vince McMahon. It's clear that Bendis wants to 'break the internet' and be talked about, and that's more important to him than a good story. -- The change to Echo was certainly for shock value, and, as Scott said, points out the uselessness of the storyline. As was said eariler though, Echo was not a Bendis character... it was Quesada, IIRC... or maybe Quesdada with Kevin Smith. She's actually a pretty cool character, but the Ronin thing made so little sense it ruined her, IMO. - While Bendis is the master of decompression, that's not what bothers me as much as that none of his characters have any character... every single good guy has the same personality under his pen(his, I assume), and it's really frustrating to read. I'm really hoping after Time Runs Out and Secret Wars, Bendis will be done with X-Men (he can focus on Guardians, I don't really care about them) and Hickman will ride off into the sunset and write crappy indy comics I can ignore. Turn the whole shooting match over to Jason Aaron and/or Al Ewing, and I'll be happy Love the 11 Cap's Kooky Quartet issues. See this year's CCC! I also agree with everything you just said about Bendis. I'll also say that I'm very sad about all of this. |
|
|
|
Post by paulie on Jan 7, 2015 10:49:29 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers I see this comment a lot - the Bendisvengers aren't "real" Avengers - but I just don't get it. Virtually every hero in the Marvel universe has been an Avenger at some point, what is it about the Bendis version that makes them less "real" than the Lee, Thomas, Conway, Englehart, Michelinie, Shooter, Stern etc Avengers? Well... for one thing Lee, Thomas, Conway, Englehart, Michelinie, Shooter and Stern are all exceptional superhero writers compared to Bendis. Granted, Bendis writes at a different 'pitch' than all of the above listed but damn if it works in the telling of classic Avengers stories. |
|
|
|
Post by badwolf on Jan 7, 2015 11:07:20 GMT -5
I enjoyed "Disassembled" even though two favorite characters (Scott Lang and Hawkeye) were killed off (and I actually missed the Hawkeye issue so I've never read it.) It felt big and mysterious and there was a real sense of impending doom. That's what I want to read! I loved the true nature of the antagonists when "they" were revealed. I know I'm in the minority but I always liked the idea that the kids were imaginary.
New Avengers...well, I sort of enjoyed it at first, but I soon got tired of the drawn out, anticlimactic stories that are Bendis' stock in trade. I think I dropped it after the second arc.
|
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 11:09:12 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - First, to me, Avengers ended about 10 years ago. I've read several of the Bendis-penned books, and none of them are Avengers I see this comment a lot - the Bendisvengers aren't "real" Avengers - but I just don't get it. Virtually every hero in the Marvel universe has been an Avenger at some point, what is it about the Bendis version that makes them less "real" than the Lee, Thomas, Conway, Englehart, Michelinie, Shooter, Stern etc Avengers? Mostly Spiderman and Wolverine... both characters whose main character point is that they're loners, where the main members. Every writer added a character or three of their own, but all the others at least kept around some of the long time 'classic' characters.. Bendis didn't really. I guess Tony STark was still around, but he was so off character-wise, he doesn't count. |
|
