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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 11:19:14 GMT -5
Mostly Spiderman and Wolverine... both characters whose main character point is that they're loners, where the main members. Every writer added a character or three of their own, but all the others at least kept around some of the long time 'classic' characters.. Bendis didn't really. I guess Tony STark was still around, but he was so off character-wise, he doesn't count. Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! Spider-Man, I'll give you to some extent - he's not generally a team characters, except... he's had an unending series of "team-ups" with just about everyone on earth! He's also occasionally been a member of the F4, though not generally for long |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 7, 2015 11:24:26 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - I've never understood the anger about Avengers Dissembled.. they get dissembled every 100 issues (almost on the dot), hell, you could really consider the change from the original roster to the 'Cap's Kooky Quartet' era the first time.. how many issues have there been that are a wall of headshots that says 'Who will be the new Avengers' or some such? 4? 5? Please forgive me for snipping out this paragraph from your post. I just wanted to address that point directly. You are absolutely correct about the number of times the line-up has changed. However, this one gets a lot of hate because of the way it was done. He killed off, what, 4 or 5 Avengers, some in really stupid ways, ruined what was left of the Scarlet Witch, and left the group so demoralized that they disbanded. All so he could have his group of favorite characters to play with, whether they made any sense in the group or not (Wolverine? Spider-Man?). |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 7, 2015 11:31:03 GMT -5
Mostly Spiderman and Wolverine... both characters whose main character point is that they're loners, where the main members. Every writer added a character or three of their own, but all the others at least kept around some of the long time 'classic' characters.. Bendis didn't really. I guess Tony STark was still around, but he was so off character-wise, he doesn't count. Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! Spider-Man, I'll give you to some extent - he's not generally a team characters, except... he's had an unending series of "team-ups" with just about everyone on earth! He's also occasionally been a member of the F4, though not generally for long You're right, Wolverine's main thing is being in the X-Men. But being both with the X-Men and the Avengers at the same time really strained credibility. |
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Post by badwolf on Jan 7, 2015 11:31:08 GMT -5
You are absolutely correct about the number of times the line-up has changed. However, this one gets a lot of hate because of the way it was done. He killed off, what, 4 or 5 Avengers, some in really stupid ways, ruined what was left of the Scarlet Witch, and left the group so demoralized that they disbanded. All so he could have his group of favorite characters to play with, whether they made any sense in the group or not (Wolverine? Spider-Man?). Yeah, I didn't mind most of the events that led to the breakup but I wish he'd continued to follow the existing cast as they worked through the tragedy. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 7, 2015 11:41:57 GMT -5
You are absolutely correct about the number of times the line-up has changed. However, this one gets a lot of hate because of the way it was done. He killed off, what, 4 or 5 Avengers, some in really stupid ways, ruined what was left of the Scarlet Witch, and left the group so demoralized that they disbanded. All so he could have his group of favorite characters to play with, whether they made any sense in the group or not (Wolverine? Spider-Man?). Yeah, I didn't mind most of the events that led to the breakup but I wish he'd continued to follow the existing cast as they worked through the tragedy. That would have been an improvement over what he did. When he was done torturing the characters he just flushed them so he could get to the ones he wanted to write. |
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Post by The Captain on Jan 7, 2015 11:46:00 GMT -5
Wolverine has solidly been in team books since 1975! He's the least lonely loner on the face of the earth! You're right, Wolverine's main thing is being in the X-Men. But being both with the X-Men and the Avengers at the same time really strained credibility. But you can't let something like continuity get in the way of telling a good story. Wolverine in the Savage Land with the Avengers for six months worth of books, and in Genosha with the X-Men for the same six months' worth of books? No problem. We'll just handwave it away by explaining that while the stories both take place in the same universe, they aren't occurring in the same time frame, even though events from one book may be mentioned in the other book a month or two after they happen, indicating that they actually are in the same time frame. It's just Bendis' (and Marvel's now, unfortunately) way of ripping constant holes in the space-time continuum, like a Doctor Who villain or something. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2015 12:07:01 GMT -5
It's pretty much impossible to make Marvel continuity line up now in the way that used to be possible in the 70s - every character is appearing in multiple books every month. You can't even make the books within a particular franchise (eg Avengers) line up without a lot of squinting and wishful thinking. You can either accept a hand-wave and accept that the stories all are taking place in the same universe but are a massive jigsaw puzzle that sort of fits together, or you take the way out that Slott introduced in She-Hulk with other dimensional versions of the same characters co-inhabiting 616 Earth (maybe this is the new improved Sacred Wars idea - to permanently have 2 or 3 of each characters available), but never mention it again after introducing the idea
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -5
I just wanted to comment a bit on Bendis' Avengers: - I've never understood the anger about Avengers Dissembled.. they get dissembled every 100 issues (almost on the dot), hell, you could really consider the change from the original roster to the 'Cap's Kooky Quartet' era the first time.. how many issues have there been that are a wall of headshots that says 'Who will be the new Avengers' or some such? 4? 5? Please forgive me for snipping out this paragraph from your post. I just wanted to address that point directly. You are absolutely correct about the number of times the line-up has changed. However, this one gets a lot of hate because of the way it was done. He killed off, what, 4 or 5 Avengers, some in really stupid ways, ruined what was left of the Scarlet Witch, and left the group so demoralized that they disbanded. All so he could have his group of favorite characters to play with, whether they made any sense in the group or not (Wolverine? Spider-Man?). I'm not sure that's that different from the end of the Roger Stern run... Herucles was in the hospital in a coma, Captain Marvel de-powered, Black Knight cursed and on death's door, Dr. Druid evil, and She-Hulk totally disillusioned. As for Wolverine, yes, he's an X-Man, but he's always depicted there (at least, pre-Bendis) as barely tolerating the others, (except his female teen sidekick du jour and Jean Grey, that is), joining the Avengers is totally different. Then there's the whole fact that he's a known killer (which they bring up when it's convienent, and forget other times)... but that's another topic. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 13:04:38 GMT -5
You're right, Wolverine's main thing is being in the X-Men. But being both with the X-Men and the Avengers at the same time really strained credibility. But you can't let something like continuity get in the way of telling a good story. Wolverine in the Savage Land with the Avengers for six months worth of books, and in Genosha with the X-Men for the same six months' worth of books? No problem. We'll just handwave it away by explaining that while the stories both take place in the same universe, they aren't occurring in the same time frame, even though events from one book may be mentioned in the other book a month or two after they happen, indicating that they actually are in the same time frame. It's just Bendis' (and Marvel's now, unfortunately) way of ripping constant holes in the space-time continuum, like a Doctor Who villain or something. While I agree with the sentiment, current Marvel has taken it too far. There's no way that the Remender Avengers live in the same universe as the Hickman Avengers, for instance. They're using the same NAMES, but the characters are often completely different. THATS the bad kind of ignoring continuity. If someone has a blue left sock instead of green, whatever. When the universe is about to be destroyed, yet the Avengers and X-Men find the time to bicker about nonsense, and when there's two different Caps, Thors, Iron Men, etc running around, with overlapping time that can't possibly be justified, I start getting grumpy. Never mind that Bendis can't keep things straight in multiple books HES WRITING. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jan 7, 2015 13:06:03 GMT -5
It's pretty much impossible to make Marvel continuity line up now in the way that used to be possible in the 70s - every character is appearing in multiple books every month. You can't even make the books within a particular franchise (eg Avengers) line up without a lot of squinting and wishful thinking. You can either accept a hand-wave and accept that the stories all are taking place in the same universe but are a massive jigsaw puzzle that sort of fits together, or you take the way out that Slott introduced in She-Hulk with other dimensional versions of the same characters co-inhabiting 616 Earth (maybe this is the new improved Sacred Wars idea - to permanently have 2 or 3 of each characters available), but never mention it again after introducing the idea I just consider each writer as having their own Marvel Universe, that's the only way not to be annoyed by it. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 7, 2015 13:07:21 GMT -5
Are they telling enjoyable stories? Because that's all I really care about.
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Post by fanboystranger on Jan 7, 2015 13:38:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure that's that different from the end of the Roger Stern run... Herucles was in the hospital in a coma, Captain Marvel de-powered, Black Knight cursed and on death's door, Dr. Druid evil, and She-Hulk totally disillusioned. A small quibble: Other than Hercules (who had been healed by Prometheus in "Assault on Olympus" but remained in Olympus to convelesce), those weren't Roger Stern's comics, and he's disavowed any involvement he had with them. (Mostly plotting the "Heavy Metal" arc.) Walt Simonson was the writer of most of those issues, but it was Mark Gruenwald pushing those Avengers out behind the scenes. Eventually Walt would leave, too, because he also wasn't allowed to tell the stories he wanted to, and had to deal with a constantly shifting line-up. |
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Post by DE Sinclair on Jan 7, 2015 14:44:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure that's that different from the end of the Roger Stern run... Herucles was in the hospital in a coma, Captain Marvel de-powered, Black Knight cursed and on death's door, Dr. Druid evil, and She-Hulk totally disillusioned. A small quibble: Other than Hercules (who had been healed by Prometheus in "Assault on Olympus" but remained in Olympus to convelesce), those weren't Roger Stern's comics, and he's disavowed any involvement he had with them. (Mostly plotting the "Heavy Metal" arc.) Walt Simonson was the writer of most of those issues, but it was Mark Gruenwald pushing those Avengers out behind the scenes. Eventually Walt would leave, too, because he also wasn't allowed to tell the stories he wanted to, and had to deal with a constantly shifting line-up. The difference that I see after the two events in question: Hercules: Alive Captain Marvel: Alive Black Knight: Alive Dr. Druid: Alive She-Hulk: Alive Hawkeye: Dead Vision: Dead Ant-Man: Dead Jack of Hearts: Dead Scarlet Witch: Ruined for several years Granted many have eventually come back, but it doesn't change what he did or how he did it. |
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Post by paulie on Jan 7, 2015 14:57:23 GMT -5
Fables
Fables
Fables
The first 75 issues are perfect. The next 75 are still terrific.
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Crimebuster
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Post by Crimebuster on Jan 7, 2015 15:58:50 GMT -5
Please forgive me for snipping out this paragraph from your post. I just wanted to address that point directly. You are absolutely correct about the number of times the line-up has changed. However, this one gets a lot of hate because of the way it was done. He killed off, what, 4 or 5 Avengers, some in really stupid ways, ruined what was left of the Scarlet Witch, and left the group so demoralized that they disbanded. All so he could have his group of favorite characters to play with, whether they made any sense in the group or not (Wolverine? Spider-Man?). I'm not sure that's that different from the end of the Roger Stern run... Herucles was in the hospital in a coma, Captain Marvel de-powered, Black Knight cursed and on death's door, Dr. Druid evil, and She-Hulk totally disillusioned. I would argue that "they have done really sucky stories like this before" is not a great defense. Disassembled is not terribly different than Simonson's dismantling of the team in #291-297 - though of course Simonson is a vastly superior writer - but there's a very good reason why most Avengers fans, including myself and most of the others on these boards, consider the end of the golden age of Avengers comics to be #300. Because that Simonson storyline and its aftermath (both in terms of the stories and the creative turnover that followed) effectively mangled the franchise for years to come. Why is Disassembled so disliked? Because it was repeating the worst mistake in franchise history - only Disassembled did it far more incompetently, and on a much larger scale. |
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