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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 1:18:21 GMT -5
I disagree. That's the very nature of the characters. And it's not a single thing that makes something juvenile, but a collection of things. Checking boxes and when you hit a certain point, there you are. Trademarked logo on chest? Goofy animal ears on your spandex costume? Giant muscles? Good guys in red, white, and blue, bad guys with skull or goblin faces? Bad guys having zero motivation for doing bad things beyond screwing with the hero? Good guy having zero motivation for doing good things beyond having a special ability? Can't go 22 pages without getting in a knockdown dragout brawl that destroys the city but leaves both you and your opponent completely unharmed? I can go on and on. There are so many. Not every single Marvel comic will feature all of them, but there isn't a mainstream superhero comic out there that doesn't feature a good chunk of them. There is a formula that both companies have built up from since the beginning. And while the finishing touches, like house style, number of pages, lengths of stories, and level of sex and gore may have changed, the architecture is still there. Most of that(especially the bits concerning the costumes) seems to be a rather arbitrary to me, and on top of that many are generalizations that don't fit every book. Are there many books where there is zero motivation for the heroes and villains? Absolutely, but again there are just as many that include varied and interesting character motivations that go far beyond, "I'm strong so I'm gonna do good!". And it's the ame thing with city destroying brawls, do they yes, but more often than not the property damage is nil so again not really an accurate picture of super hero stories. The key part was where I said "And it's not a single thing that makes something juvenile, but a collection of things. Checking boxes and when you hit a certain point, there you are. " Does the villain sometimes have motivation? Sure, sometimes. That box obviously wouldn't be checked, but if five or six others are, there you are. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 1:20:41 GMT -5
Isn't it all juvenile? All entertainment? Functional human beings with great minds and vast capabilities pretending they're fighting a war against aliens via a controller, or beding all the gals and shooting all the bad guys like the one on the screen, or saving the world from some egomaniac at the turn of every page? Escapism IS juvenile when the plight of humanity is where it is. Constructive things can be done to help along the human race before we all kill each other, starve each other, or destroy the planet itself. But we'd all rather take an hour and watch to see how many bull testicles a person can shove down their throat for money. 100% of the world has the capability for escapism even if it's only folk tales. And in light of what we could be doing with that time it's all juvenile. Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to drink beer and pretend I'm kill some necromorphs in space with mining tools. :-) While I don't think it's all juvenile, I'll lean more this direction than to say some stories about musclemen in underoos punching Hitler in the face aren't. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Jan 22, 2015 9:43:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't say that all literature functions strictly as escapism, though. Telling stories and listening to (or reading, viewing, etc) stories seems to be pretty fundamental to human nature, and we use stories to communicate in all kinds of ways and for all kinds of reasons, including but not limited to pure escapism from the stresses and hardships of the real world. Some stories embody deeply felt feelings or perceptions about that real world, for example - folk stories and myths often work that way. A lot of the better science fiction can be described as novels of ideas, rather than escapism - though they surely hope to present those ideas in an interesting or entertaining way. I totally agree that entertainment can and is no doubt good for humans. It's why we have cave paintings. From early on human recognized that hunting and gathering (which is all we do today no matter how society and technology dress it up) was hard work and wasn't all that they wanted to do with their day. I'm not attacking all entertainment as useless. What I guess I wasn't very explicit about in my last post was in the very definition of using juvenile (marked by immaturity). Escapism (the tendency to escape from daily reality or routine by indulging in daydreaming, fantasy, or entertainment), while mentally and probably emotionally healthy for humans, was an activity socially acceptable for children, but at some point when adulthood is reached is not an acceptable luxury. Being an adult meant shedding those irresponsible tendencies and becoming productive to society. Growing up. But being all work and no play sucks. So adults dressed it up differently and made it something that wasn't juvenile in their minds. But if using entertainment to escape the reality, it doesn't matter if it's a debonair spy that's good with the gals, and tough on the bad guys, or a guy in blue spandex and a red cape, the end result is the same for both the child and the adult. So it's both escapism. And if it's strictly for escapism then why is the subject have any bearing on whether it is socially acceptable for adults and some of it not? I don't find Tom & Jerry cartoons any more juvenile of an escapism than I do Citizen Kane. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 22, 2015 11:20:48 GMT -5
Most of that(especially the bits concerning the costumes) seems to be a rather arbitrary to me, and on top of that many are generalizations that don't fit every book. Are there many books where there is zero motivation for the heroes and villains? Absolutely, but again there are just as many that include varied and interesting character motivations that go far beyond, "I'm strong so I'm gonna do good!". And it's the ame thing with city destroying brawls, do they yes, but more often than not the property damage is nil so again not really an accurate picture of super hero stories. The key part was where I said "And it's not a single thing that makes something juvenile, but a collection of things. Checking boxes and when you hit a certain point, there you are. " Does the villain sometimes have motivation? Sure, sometimes. That box obviously wouldn't be checked, but if five or six others are, there you are. And that works on a story to story basis but not as a whole and so it can't be inherent. |
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Post by robsuperfriend63 on Jan 22, 2015 13:28:53 GMT -5
To me it's all-ages! ... If you love adventure, exciting moments, colorful artwork, fantasy, and bits of everything under the Sun - To me, it's make any adult a kid again! I couldn't have said it better!  |
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Post by robsuperfriend63 on Jan 22, 2015 13:29:05 GMT -5
To me it's all-ages! ... If you love adventure, exciting moments, colorful artwork, fantasy, and bits of everything under the Sun - To me, it's make any adult a kid again! I couldn't have said it better! |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 17:58:11 GMT -5
The key part was where I said "And it's not a single thing that makes something juvenile, but a collection of things. Checking boxes and when you hit a certain point, there you are. " Does the villain sometimes have motivation? Sure, sometimes. That box obviously wouldn't be checked, but if five or six others are, there you are. And that works on a story to story basis but not as a whole and so it can't be inherent. And story by story, they all fall into that category. Part of it is established history of the character, part of it is editorial mandate, and part of it is simply the tropes of super hero comics that everyone seems to follow no matter what. But I still don't see the big deal about admitting something you like is actually juvenile either. It's much easier than convincing me the guy with wings on his head who runs really fast isn't. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 22, 2015 18:07:49 GMT -5
And that works on a story to story basis but not as a whole and so it can't be inherent. And story by story, they all fall into that category. Part of it is established history of the character, part of it is editorial mandate, and part of it is simply the tropes of super hero comics that everyone seems to follow no matter what. But I still don't see the big deal about admitting something you like is actually juvenile either. It's much easier than convincing me the guy with wings on his head who runs really fast isn't. I just don't see it, there are plenty of stories with Superman, Batman, the Hulk and others that just don't feel juvenile; they deal with complex plots, interesting characterizations, motivations and include themes that are mature in nature...despite wearing funny clothes. And again, I don't have a problem with many of these stories being labeled juvenile, I like them none the less and see nothing wrong with their more juvenile feel but at the same time there are just as many that don't have that feel at all. Your inability to see that there is a range of tones and themes not just trough out the genre but with in the stories of the mainstream heroes just seems like they're not to your particular tastes rather than actually being entirely juvenile. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 19:06:57 GMT -5
You could say some pro wrestling events involved complex plots and mature themes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 20:07:34 GMT -5
You could say some pro wrestling events involved complex plots and mature themes. So true, because of the mature themes as you mentioned - I've stopped watching pro wrestling altogther and matter of fact I don't like it anymore. |
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 22, 2015 20:15:13 GMT -5
You could say some pro wrestling events involved complex plots and mature themes. From my hazy memories of watching wrestling growing up I don't really remember much in the way of stories or impactful themes, all I remember is a bunch of dudes hitting each other with maybe a revenge plot now and again. On the other hand there are many stories that dealt with interesting character developments and complex emotional intrigues that involved the likes of Batman and Superman, so although the flashy names and costumes may be similar and indeed, historically some of the costumers were inspired by early wrestlers and circus strong men, I don't think the comparison really holds up. Sure, you've introduced a medium that has a definite juvenile appeal and that has similar wardrobe features but that similarity doesn't prove they are the same because of that shared feature. Rather than a comparison with a valid point that just feels like a straw man to me and that's just not going to help you get your point across at all. What you have to do is either explain why flashy costumes, that are admittedly silly in a realistic sense, over power the other literary elements those comics have that would normally mark them as more mature and make them inherently juvenile, or prove that those said literary elements don't exist. So far however, you have done neither. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 22, 2015 20:57:25 GMT -5
Still, these complex emotional intrigues are generally resolved by men in flashy costumes hitting each other - The story structure of superhero comics and pro wrestling is actually quite close.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 22, 2015 21:11:53 GMT -5
And the conflicts in westerns and spy novels are usually solved by guys shooting each other, and medieval period piece dramas are often concluded with one guy stabbing another and yet they are not typically classified as juvenile and yet they all wear clothes that are genre specific.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jan 22, 2015 21:24:25 GMT -5
But they would be if cowboys dressed in bright orange with a green cape and a large letter "C" on the front of their uniform for "Captain Cowboy."
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 22, 2015 21:59:10 GMT -5
But they would be if cowboys dressed in bright orange with a green cape and a large letter "C" on the front of their uniform for "Captain Cowboy." So the suit trumps everything? |
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