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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 0:22:19 GMT -5
Valiant hasn't been around as long, but there's no sliding time scale there. Sometimes smaller is better. But how many times has Valiant rebooted their continuity because of going out of business and getting bought by someone else-there's original Valiant, the Acclaim versions, and now new Valiant at least...not to mention previous versions of the Gold Key properties that were a part of previous Valiant/Acclaim lines... so yeah, smaller, but not a model of publishing stability by any means. -M |
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Post by clutterstuffmichael on Apr 26, 2015 1:11:00 GMT -5
I think this is a fascinating topic, and the members of the board have some very well-considered opinions.
In my opinion, since this is a fictional universe, we shouldn't worry too much about it. Events in the comics may happen in relation to each other, but time does not have to pass at a set rate. Time can compress and expand and stand still, as necessary to tell the stories that the authors want to tell. With the thousands of identified characters spread across hundreds of titles over 75 years or so (real-time, if you consider any Timely era stories canonical), it would be impossible to maintain any logical, consistent, singular continuity.
On the other hand, Marvel could embrace the loose continuity and run with it, but instead they occasionally try too hard to "fix" it. When they do this, fans can't help but notice the inconsistencies.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 6:18:21 GMT -5
Whaddya want? Iron Man's origin to still be set in the Vietnam war, in which case Tony Stark would be around eighty years old by now? Yeah, that works. The sliding time scale doesn't always work perfectly, but it's the best solution you're gonna get to explain how characters created fifty years ago aren't all in a retirement home by now. When these characters were first created, with a lot of their origins tied in to current events at the time (Vietnam War, the Space Race), I'm sure Stan, Jack, et al never dreamed that a: their characters' stories would still be going in fifty years, and b: still being read by some of the same fans. It's a fictional reality, sometimes some trimming and pruning needs to be done or the whole thing would collapse under its own weight. Continuity is a useful storytelling tool, but it should be there to serve the stories, not the other way around. THIS. I don't care so much about the time. I understand for it to make some sense (you know, as much sense as we can expect comics to make), there has to be a sliding timeline. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 26, 2015 8:09:54 GMT -5
I'd actually greatly prefer if they just admitted Bendis' books, Hickman's Books, Remender's Books, and Aaron's books all take place in alternate universes... it's the fact they insult my intelligence by claiming they have a unified line, then make no attempt at all to actually deliver it, that annoys me the most.
There's also the fact that no one is allow to be old.... they want the benefits of shared continuity and history, but won't maintain it.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 26, 2015 8:29:34 GMT -5
I think this is a fascinating topic, and the members of the board have some very well-considered opinions. My friend, such a mature and polite attitude won't get you far on the internet!!!  I fully agree. What I would like to see is writers who do not try to actively negate past stories, but also do ot try to integrate every detail of a character's decades-long career in every storyline. Case in point: I would simply not mention Tony Stark's involvement in the Vietnam war; if need be, a passing reference to his past as a weapons maker or his being grievously wounded in "a war" would be easier to handle than trying to determine what age he actually is. Soft-replacing the Vietnam war by the first Gulf war, by the Bosnian campaign, by the Afghan war or by whatever conflict best suits today's calendar is a futile gesture, because any real date will soon be too far in the past to make sense. |
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Post by clutterstuffmichael on Apr 26, 2015 8:49:55 GMT -5
(Forgive me if I didn't quote correctly. I'm new to the board and trying to figure it out.)
Exactly. Is Vietnam critical to the narrative? No, the critical point is that he was a weapons dealer. By specifically attaching events in the Marvel Universe to events in the real world, no discerning reader can help but see that 50 years passed in "10."
This was, of course, an important part of Lee & Kirby's vision for Marvel just over 50 years ago. Their world was the world we live in. Their issues are the issues we deal with. Spiderman and the Fantastic Four lived in New York, not a make-believe place like Gotham or Metropolis. Most of the stories are not intrinsically tied to what happens in the real world, though. They are universal stories that could equally exist in any world in any time period. I guess that's why I don't mind the fact that no one gets older (at least not consistently).
My problems with continuity is when stories are inconsistent within the Marvel world, in relation to each other. If someone dies in one title (for real, not comic book death) then he shouldn't show up in another title still alive without some kind of explanation or acknowledgement. If the active Hulk is gray, the green Hulk shouldn't show up in another title as if he was still active. Etc.
Michael
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 26, 2015 11:22:34 GMT -5
I'd actually greatly prefer if they just admitted Bendis' books, Hickman's Books, Remender's Books, and Aaron's books all take place in alternate universes... it's the fact they insult my intelligence by claiming they have a unified line, then make no attempt at all to actually deliver it, that annoys me the most. There's also the fact that no one is allow to be old.... they want the benefits of shared continuity and history, but won't maintain it. They say that because otherwise the books "don't count" and the sales go in the toilet. The long-term fanboy has to have all their toys in one universe and if they aren't then they won't play with them. And the idea is that nobody want to buy books with old people. Whether that is a self-fulfilling prophecy is another matter. But that's why. Fanboys rant against the world they've built. News at eleven. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 26, 2015 14:23:37 GMT -5
My problems with continuity is when stories are inconsistent within the Marvel world, in relation to each other. If someone dies in one title (for real, not comic book death) then he shouldn't show up in another title still alive without some kind of explanation or acknowledgement. If the active Hulk is gray, the green Hulk shouldn't show up in another title as if he was still active. Etc. Quite so. It's a simple enough matter for the editor (whose job it should be, in my opinion) to know enough about the history of the book they're in charge of, and of what's going on in other titles, to keep things straight. Such an editor could say "Writer, in your latest script you have someone discover Professor Xavier's long-lost twin brother living chained in the X-Mansion's attic, where he's been for the past 40 years. But the X-Mansion has been blown up at least five times during that period, so that plot element would have to be tweaked; can't the brother have been chained in, say, the professor's summer house?" |
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Post by wickedmountain on Apr 26, 2015 14:55:19 GMT -5
What do I personally want? I'd like the Marvel universe to progress and develop as a cohesive whole, which it stopped doing quite a long time ago. I'd be totally fine with the characters being ageless/timeless, as long as things changed and grew over time. I'd prefer if they let the character have a career grow old, perhaps die, and then move on, but I know that's not really an option. I'd be happy to have Tony Stark be 50 years old... in fact, I think that would make for some great stories. There are TONS of great characters that don't get used because Marvel can't move on... how about an X-Men team with Iceman in the Professor X role, because Cyclops really DID retire to Alaska and has 5 grandkids? It's the one thing where I wish American comics would learn from Japan. But that wasn't even my point... my point is not sliding time forward, it's compressing it further and further, even as more events happens. It's just getting silly. If you want to have ageless and timeless characters, stop making time references! Maybe they could be like timelords and just regenerate after a few hundred years old or in tom bakers doctor case he was a little over 800 as he put it lol . |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 26, 2015 15:41:28 GMT -5
They say that because otherwise the books "don't count" and the sales go in the toilet. The long-term fanboy has to have all their toys in one universe and if they aren't then they won't play with them. And the idea is that nobody want to buy books with old people. Whether that is a self-fulfilling prophecy is another matter. But that's why. Fanboys rant against the world they've built. News at eleven. And if Marvel stopped doing what 'fanboys' wanted, they might be able to take advantage of the amazing movie success and actually garner some sort of mainstream appeal for comics. I actually often like books that 'don't count'... the digital first DC stuff has been great. I can see the problem though, if it's not an ongoing saga, it's not a big deal to miss an issue. Of course, the flip side to that is you can pick up a random issue without being lost. I know the IDEA is no one likes stories about old people... I just dispute that.  |
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 26, 2015 15:47:26 GMT -5
Also, RE: tying origins to real life like Tony Stark in Vietnam. I just read Magneto for this month, and the story directly ties into his history as a Holocaust survivor... and it was fine. Yes, that would mean he's like 85 years old... and he obviously isn't, but that's OK... I much prefer that then changing origins every few years.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 26, 2015 16:47:14 GMT -5
They say that because otherwise the books "don't count" and the sales go in the toilet. The long-term fanboy has to have all their toys in one universe and if they aren't then they won't play with them. And the idea is that nobody want to buy books with old people. Whether that is a self-fulfilling prophecy is another matter. But that's why. Fanboys rant against the world they've built. News at eleven. And if Marvel stopped doing what 'fanboys' wanted, they might be able to take advantage of the amazing movie success and actually garner some sort of mainstream appeal for comics. I actually often like books that 'don't count'... the digital first DC stuff has been great. I can see the problem though, if it's not an ongoing saga, it's not a big deal to miss an issue. Of course, the flip side to that is you can pick up a random issue without being lost. I know the IDEA is no one likes stories about old people... I just dispute that. They might. Or they might not. Movie tickets have seldom, if ever, translated into comic book sales. They might very well find that they've alienated their only viable audience. I don't know what type of market research Marvel does. But I'm pretty sure that it's better than what is done by the people bitching on the internet. Which doesn't mean that they don't get to bitch, just that their opinions are anecdotal to themselves and don't mean much of anything in the universal scheme of things. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2015 17:22:03 GMT -5
Also, RE: tying origins to real life like Tony Stark in Vietnam. I just read Magneto for this month, and the story directly ties into his history as a Holocaust survivor... and it was fine. Yes, that would mean he's like 85 years old... and he obviously isn't, but that's OK... I much prefer that then changing origins every few years. Yes, but if you are following "continuity" he has been de-aged, and gotten new bodies or what not umteen times to maintain that Holocaust origin and for other reasons over the years, each more ridiculous than the last to maintain that historical tie in the onslaught of passing years... The more you try to cling to continuity, perpetual characters and ties to the real passage of time all at the same time, the more hoops you create to jump through and the more ridiculous it gets, and the harder it gets to just tell good stories because you have to serve the needs of the collective sandbox before you serve the needs of the story. -M PS to add...in the 60s and 70s when the shared sandbox was the hallmark by which Marvel made their bread and butter with fandom, there was far less baggage to move around to do so, 15 years worth or stories to juggle is tough, but doable with skilled hands, but even the most skilled hands are going to have trouble with 50+ years with of stories to keep true to, and everyone you ignore is someone else's favorite, and even one you adhere to is hated by someone else who wants it to be forgotten. And no matter what you do, someone will bellyache on the internet about how bad Marvel has gotten...meanwhile people will still buy it and a lot will still be satisfied by what they are buying and never post word one on the internet... |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 26, 2015 18:05:28 GMT -5
Also, RE: tying origins to real life like Tony Stark in Vietnam. I just read Magneto for this month, and the story directly ties into his history as a Holocaust survivor... and it was fine. Yes, that would mean he's like 85 years old... and he obviously isn't, but that's OK... I much prefer that then changing origins every few years. True, and Magneto benefitted from a comic-book science advantage: after Omega the mutant turned him to a baby in the pages of Defenders, he was brought back to the prime of adulthood by the Shiar agent Erik the red in the pages of the X-Men. It is by such means that comic-book characters can stay young FOREVER!  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 26, 2015 18:14:15 GMT -5
There is a lot of stuff that I think Marvel does wrong; giving precedence to " movie continuity" to established continuity in the comics being one. But at the same time, things like Hawkeye and She-Hulk are awesome comics!
I would be very interested to know who actually buys comics. Internet boards are hardly representative, because by definition they will interest only readers who devote a lot of time to that hobby, and are likely to count many long time readers in their ranks. But how many comics do long time readers buy compared to, say, people who read them for one or two years after having seen a movie? Or to parents who buy a few after having taken their kid to see the latest Iron Man or Avengers flick? To such readers, continuity has no importance whatsoever.
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