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Post by hondobrode on Apr 26, 2015 23:22:36 GMT -5
Valiant hasn't been around as long, but there's no sliding time scale there. Sometimes smaller is better. But how many times has Valiant rebooted their continuity because of going out of business and getting bought by someone else-there's original Valiant, the Acclaim versions, and now new Valiant at least...not to mention previous versions of the Gold Key properties that were a part of previous Valiant/Acclaim lines... so yeah, smaller, but not a model of publishing stability by any means. -M I know what you're saying, but, I don't think the current Valiant regime is going to do that. Just saying that Marvel has morphed out of control IMO. Valiant keeps things manageable with 8 titles in rotation and tight continuity. To me, it's a good balance of continuity, superheroes, and manageability.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 0:04:30 GMT -5
But how many times has Valiant rebooted their continuity because of going out of business and getting bought by someone else-there's original Valiant, the Acclaim versions, and now new Valiant at least...not to mention previous versions of the Gold Key properties that were a part of previous Valiant/Acclaim lines... so yeah, smaller, but not a model of publishing stability by any means. -M I know what you're saying, but, I don't think the current Valiant regime is going to do that. Just saying that Marvel has morphed out of control IMO. Valiant keeps things manageable with 8 titles in rotation and tight continuity. To me, it's a good balance of continuity, superheroes, and manageability. And they average less than 1% of the marketshare in units and dollars each month, only #1 issues sell over 20K units (and that barely for high profile stuff like The Valiant and Ninjak, lesser profile books average 10-12K debut issues and they see about a 40% dropoff in orders by #3 on most series if not more. That's physical sales through Diamond. Trade sales through Diamond are at the same marketshare. Not sure how well they do digitally. But that doesn't look like a longterm viable business model to me. Not if they keep bringing in name talent that costs more and gets the same results. If they expect the movies to bring an influx of readers, well Marvel's been expecting that since 2000 and it hasn't happened yet, so I doubt Valiant will see it either. I don't dislike Valiant, I didn't like it enough to keep reading when I sampled their initial offerings, but I don't dislike it. The new owners seem to have a lot of ambition without a sound foundation to build on and seem to take a lot of fiscal risks, having faith that if you build it they will come, just like Valiant generation 1 and Acclaim did, and well, neither of those ventures had enough people come to what they built to sustain them long term, and took a bath when they tied up their capital in other media hoping it would bring readers. I see the same pattern in decision making with the current Valiant ownership. I hope I am wrong, but they seem to be repeating a lot of the mistakes of previous regimes at Valiant. -M
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Post by hondobrode on Apr 27, 2015 0:12:33 GMT -5
Valiant sold ton's in it's first iteration. After Bob Layton took over is when it doubled it's output and quality mostly went down.
Acclaim Valiant was doing ok. It was parent company Acclaim that went under because of way over-projecting how well the third Turok game would do. They pretty much bet the farm on it and lost, but that had no relation to the publishing side.
Valiant 3.0 is putting out excellent product despite having a small market share, but I believe with a movie hit, and some good merchandising, they'll be around. I really hope so.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 0:33:35 GMT -5
Valiant sold ton's in it's first iteration. After Bob Layton took over is when it doubled it's output and quality mostly went down. Acclaim Valiant was doing ok. It was parent company Acclaim that went under because of way over-projecting how well the third Turok game would do. They pretty much bet the farm on it and lost, but that had no relation to the publishing side. Valiant 3.0 is putting out excellent product despite having a small market share, but I believe with a movie hit, and some good merchandising, they'll be around. I really hope so. However, even if all that happens-can people find copies of the books...anecdotal here but, of the 6 stores in the area, 4 of them carry Valiant for pull lists only, meaning no shelf copies except for the occasional #1, though 2 of those still have copies of the $1 sampler issues floating around that people still haven't bought since they came out 2 years ago. The other 2 shops get maybe 1 or 2 shelf copies because they get 1 or 2 shelf copies of everything. At 5000 Diamond accounts and 25K copies of their best seller, that's an average of 5 per account, but if you factor in the big accounts that do mail order too (DCBS, TFAW, Midtown, Westfield, etc.) that get more than 5 copies, that means the average shop likely gets 1 or 2 copies if any at all of the best selling Valiant titles. Can't expand your readership if your books are not on the shelf, and retailers are not taking risks on books that they can't get guaranteed sales on. So there can be no casual reader influx. However, you can still buy copies of 1st generation Valiant from their initial orders (20 + years ago if they were in business then) that hare still sitting unsold in the shops in their bargain bins, not a small factor in how retailers order current Valiant by any means. So where is the product to fill any demand that the movies create-if there is any. Even if someone likes the movies and wants to read more, if it's not easy and cheap to try (so likely not going to try a full trade, too much initial investment) they won't become readers. Digital may help that, but it still hard to expand your customer base when they can't get your product easily. -M
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Post by Spike-X on Apr 27, 2015 4:50:01 GMT -5
There is a lot of stuff that I think Marvel does wrong; giving precedence to " movie continuity" to established continuity in the comics being one. Examples please? Hopefully something a little more substantial than 'Tony Stark has a goatee now, not a horrible outdated pencil mustache'. Oh yes indeedy!
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Post by DE Sinclair on Apr 27, 2015 9:01:50 GMT -5
There is a lot of stuff that I think Marvel does wrong; giving precedence to " movie continuity" to established continuity in the comics being one. Examples please? Hopefully something a little more substantial than 'Tony Stark has a goatee now, not a horrible outdated pencil mustache'. Oh yes indeedy! For example the gymnastics they had to do to replace the World War II Howling Commando Nick Fury in the standard continuity with the Samuel L. Jackson inspired Ultimates/movie version Nick Fury.
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Post by Pharozonk on Apr 27, 2015 10:33:00 GMT -5
Examples please? Hopefully something a little more substantial than 'Tony Stark has a goatee now, not a horrible outdated pencil mustache'. Oh yes indeedy! For example the gymnastics they had to do to replace the World War II Howling Commando Nick Fury in the standard continuity with the Samuel L. Jackson inspired Ultimates/movie version Nick Fury.
All for the sake of synchronization with their media projects...it's depressing.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 27, 2015 10:37:27 GMT -5
For example the gymnastics they had to do to replace the World War II Howling Commando Nick Fury in the standard continuity with the Samuel L. Jackson inspired Ultimates/movie version Nick Fury.
All for the sake of synchronization with their media projects...it's depressing. The only thing depressing is that they didn't just say...Hey! This is the new Nick Fury. The other one got old.
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Post by Pharozonk on Apr 27, 2015 13:24:07 GMT -5
All for the sake of synchronization with their media projects...it's depressing. The only thing depressing is that they didn't just say...Hey! This is the new Nick Fury. The other one got old. I would have been fine with that, but that would imply history and continuity, which modern comic companies eschew and are afraid of.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Apr 27, 2015 14:14:43 GMT -5
The only thing depressing is that they didn't just say...Hey! This is the new Nick Fury. The other one got old. I would have been fine with that, but that would imply history and continuity, which modern comic companies eschew and are afraid of. And many would contend that modern Superhero comics' (huge distinction) real problem is a slavish devotion to history and continuity.
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Post by Pharozonk on Apr 27, 2015 15:48:11 GMT -5
I would have been fine with that, but that would imply history and continuity, which modern comic companies eschew and are afraid of. And many would contend that modern Superhero comics' (huge distinction) real problem is a slavish devotion to history and continuity. If the New 52 and Marvel NOW! are any indication, that paradigm hasn't been true for several years now and yet they continue to have problems.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 27, 2015 18:00:10 GMT -5
There is a lot of stuff that I think Marvel does wrong; giving precedence to " movie continuity" to established continuity in the comics being one. Examples please? Hopefully something a little more substantial than 'Tony Stark has a goatee now, not a horrible outdated pencil . DE Sinclair mentionned turning Nick Fury into Samuel Jackson, as in the Ultimates Universe. There is also Tony Stark having been injured in Afghanistan instead of Vietnam (His goatee has been around for a long time, as far back as Heroes Reborn.). There is Star-Lord dressing like his movie counterpart, which is just a cosmetic change and doesn't really matter, but there's also his strange getting along with Gamora... and the completely new dynamics of the Guardians, much closer to the movie than to their previous series. There is J.A.R.V.I.S. being a computer program instead of a butler. There is Tony Stark having a glowing thingie in the chest to save his life, once again. The aligning with the cinematic universe is quite obvious, methinks. It doesn't mean the comics will be bad, because a good writer can write a good story no matter what. But when it comes to continuity changes, I prefer the motivation to come from the comics themselves, and not from the derived products. (Personal choice, here; I realize that Disney is a business and will do whatever it feels is the best way to generate more profits). As a reader, though, while I thought replacing old Fury by Maria Hill was cool, I think replacing him by another guy who also happens to be named Nick Fury just so he can look like his movie counterpart stretches credibility.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 22:18:32 GMT -5
If comics never took cues form other media interpretations though, we would have have had Jimmy Olsen or Kryptonite in comics. It's not a new phenomenon and it's not unique to Marvel, it's been happening since the dawn of the comics age.
Some points-The new Nick Fury is Nick Fury Jr. Nick's illegitimate and long unknown son. Stark in Afghanistan not 'Nam was a change alluded to in comics before the first Iron Man movie, something the movie picked up on not originated.
But movies reach a bigger audience-movie Snow White is different than the source material but it better known so later versions draw on the movie not the source material
movie Bond is different and better known than literary Bond and is the definitive version of the character in most people's mind
Karloff's Franlenstein is a far cry from Shelly's but is the definitive version for most people....
it's not a comic thing, it's not a Marvel thing, it's a pop/mass culture thing-the version that reaches the most people is what defines them because that's the way the process of enculturation works.
-M
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Post by Pharozonk on Apr 27, 2015 23:16:47 GMT -5
If comics never took cues form other media interpretations though, we would have have had Jimmy Olsen or Kryptonite in comics. It's not a new phenomenon and it's not unique to Marvel, it's been happening since the dawn of the comics age. Those weren't additions that radically altered the mythos of Superman though. They simply enhanced the character's world without detracting from any pre-existing concepts.
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Post by Pharozonk on Apr 27, 2015 23:17:12 GMT -5
double post
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