cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 2, 2018 19:12:42 GMT -5
Kind of back to the old Sly & the Family Stone song about "don't call me ______, ________" etc. Funny how this stark and defiant song stands in sharp contrast to the album's more optimistic vibes. Again, context is everything  Either way, you just got me dancin' |
|
|
|
Post by comicsandwho on Aug 2, 2018 19:52:27 GMT -5
Ah, the Rush Limbaugh TV show...just a half hour repetition of the 'best zingers' his three-hour radio show. No guests, no nothing.
(BTW, his favorite line about those women was 'Feminazis.') I used to listen for entertainment, and because his skewed perspective was the other side of some of the 'EVERYTHING that's not 10 trillion percent left-wing is TERRIBLE!' lefty shows heard in the Bay Area.
But, I burned out on 'news and politics talk radio' before the end of the '90s('Monicagate'.) I miss the days when AM radio played music, not syndicated yak-yak.
|
|
|
|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 2, 2018 20:01:16 GMT -5
If that woman really did mean her tweets does that make someone named warmonger a warmonger? I don't know enough about that woman or her situation to know if she's much different from Sascha Baron Cohen, but if she is I really don't think it's defensible to go to such lengths, and the the other guy is worse or provoked it somehow sounds like kids fighting. I caught Michael Moore pretty deliberately misrepresenting Canadian healthcare to his fellow Americans and I can say that having had a fair bit of actual experience with health care in the U.S. It's definitely a risk these days trying to laugh at anything, things are pretty serious and I'm not sure how much laughing at or smirking is going to work out. I don't mean humor period, but social-political stuff of any subtlety. It seems often to turn into just another us vs. them divide and conquer. Everyone gets divided into programming and news for just their demographic or cultural ghetto. Kind of back to the old Sly & the Family Stone song about "don't call me ______, ________" etc. Oh, I'm pretty sure white people aren't the majority on the planet either... ever. I believe we all came from Africa though if you go back far enough. That was the tweet that she posted that got me. The one about breeding out white people from the species. Or some such. Creation or evolution we all started from somewhere. And we’re all from God or one evolutionary step. Imagine someone saying they wanted to breed your skin color/nationality out of the human gene pool. This whole discussion reminds me of the Bukowski quote in my signature. Because nothing of what she did had a positive impact in my opinion. It only helped to further the polarization of race relations in the US. |
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Aug 2, 2018 20:38:30 GMT -5
<pops head in to The Politics Thread>
What have you guys been talking about for the past 9 hours? Oh, I see. Yeah, no.
<ducks out sheepishly and without further comment>
|
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 2, 2018 23:29:35 GMT -5
It just seems with the extreme left that if you're so against 'the hate' why even pretend it back? When you're at the very least imitating the behavior you say you're against isn't expecting everyone to accept you're just imitating something a bit overly complicated? I see Trump always saying he was being ironic or joking too, it gets really disingenuous. It might be an idea to just play straight across the board if you want people to bring serious thought to these things. Maybe The Daily Show or SNL being credited for a lot of some people getting their information is actually just a side of the same coin as people that really were getting it from Limbaugh or O'Reilly.
When things are as messed-up as they seem to be it might be a good rule to 'keep it simple stoopid'? Focus on making clear what is important to you, not adding to the chaos and noise and confusion. Thinking out loud, not saying I'm doing these things all the time or getting it all right. Middle class and working people seem to be saying pretty loudly that they are over-taxed and can't take it any more and the lefties better listen to that at some point and come up with something real to address a real situation or forfeit that field to well who knows what unfortunately (I would say a real estate developer fraud with a crap history as a businessman).
I think making everyone perfectly politically correct in their thinking and speech should be a very low priority when democracy and capitalism continuing might be at stake. If they go with Bernie Saunders as much as I think he's a good guy and it's often useful to have a fringe person like that around, I am not for communism and it's totally empty promises that if you buy into them you end up destroying souls and hope just as in a fascist criminal regime.
Let's get away from the wild pendulum swings and get back to things that have actually been shown to work over time. Free educations and health care for all, and no borders practically, is not cutting it any more than some overly privileged non-genius waving a bible and literally hugging flags is a strong man to protect a system he has gamed and conned and dismantled at every turn. It's a bit hard to get a 'revolution' going for boring, safe, the middle, doing the job... no idea how to combat those who don't want to know from either party or bother to vote. I don't want to know or talk about it has been something I've heard while in the U.S. since the Clintons.
I'm Canadian, we're usually pretty boring and quiet... could this be a job for us? I've had family and friends in The U.S. all my life, done business and lived in Alaska, Washington and California, and I just want to see people start listening to each other and find ways back to a lasting balance because you are a great idea and much needed. Poking each other with a stick and laughing isn't going to get anyone anywhere and that's what the so-called 'comedians' of infotainment and culture wars of all kinds are living off vampire like.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 3, 2018 3:58:48 GMT -5
Maybe The Daily Show or SNL being credited for a lot of some people getting their information is actually just a side of the same coin as people that really were getting it from Limbaugh or O'Reilly. I think making everyone perfectly politically correct in their thinking and speech should be a very low priority when democracy and capitalism continuing might be at stake. If they go with Bernie Saunders as much as I think he's a good guy and it's often useful to have a fringe person like that around, I am not for communism and it's totally empty promises that if you buy into them you end up destroying souls and hope just as in a fascist criminal regime. There's a huge difference between the Daily Show/SNL and Limbaugh/O'Riley : the former only pretends to offer satire and clearly advertise their skits so. It is a reaction. The latter pretends to offer you raw information and serious analysis. So no, they're not even in the same currency. Some of the original great greek satirical plays, or Molière, or even more recently Ionesco's King Ubu, they all serve a purpose : to denounce authoritarian regimes, with the hope of them not even noticing. At its core, satire is a way to bypass repression and censorship. Now, it's a way to tell the truth withot having to resort to ad hominems. It's also often the very last hope for some brainwashed people to hear a dissonant voice in their bubble. About Bernie Sanders, don't worry, he's nowhere near being a communist. Socialism and communism are and have always been far far appart. And this soul destroying you refer to, it's not communism either, it's a perversion, it's stalinism and maoism... Look in the US : it's exactly the same as those conservatives saying that the tea party or Trump aren't real conservatism, just extreme perversions emanating from the same ground. The italian 70ies communist party and governements of Enrico Berlinguer had nothing to do with the soviet brand of communism, and neither did many other itterations. But if you insist in calling it all communism, if it ever was to be implemented in north America, it would be a very specific and local brand of communism, mostly changing the economical rules, but not that much your everyday life, it would be pretty pragmatic, and wouldn't change in any ways the religious freedoms, as long as they stay separated from the state. It may meddle with specific tax deductions for churches, but compared to what is currently going on, it would be such a small thing, if not maybe even a fair one  |
|
|
|
Post by Rob Allen on Aug 3, 2018 12:00:35 GMT -5
Yes. That's what I believe - that she did not mean any of that stuff. Not one bit. So do you give someone like, let’s say, Roseanne Barr the same benefit of the doubt? Yes, I would. If she were to explain the intent behind a widely-misunderstood statement or series of statements, and (this is important) behave differently from then on, as Sarah Jeong has, I'd believe her. In fact, this has happened - Roseanne did what she thought was a funny version of the Star-Spangled Banner some years ago. Many people thought she was being disrespectful, but she said it was intended as comedy but didn't work, and she hasn't done it again. So I believe her. |
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 3, 2018 13:00:57 GMT -5
Maybe The Daily Show or SNL being credited for a lot of some people getting their information is actually just a side of the same coin as people that really were getting it from Limbaugh or O'Reilly. I think making everyone perfectly politically correct in their thinking and speech should be a very low priority when democracy and capitalism continuing might be at stake. If they go with Bernie Saunders as much as I think he's a good guy and it's often useful to have a fringe person like that around, I am not for communism and it's totally empty promises that if you buy into them you end up destroying souls and hope just as in a fascist criminal regime. There's a huge difference between the Daily Show/SNL and Limbaugh/O'Riley : the former only pretends to offer satire and clearly advertise their skits so. It is a reaction. The latter pretends to offer you raw information and serious analysis. So no, they're not even in the same currency. About Bernie Sanders, don't worry, he's nowhere near being a communist. Socialism and communism are and have always been far far apart. I do understand what you're saying, but if people are going to bridge a gap, from the other perspective these things are the flipside of coin to them. They do see Daily Show/Colbert/SNL as totally hostile and slanted the way you see their various alt-right and similar slanted things. I'm going on the basis that we/you need an actual conservative party, and one of their foundations it seems to me is that communism is essentially evil (yes, on paper these things work perfectly but so far in reality Cuba seems to be about as good as it gets and it was propped up by Russia where they killed millions of their own people)... so anyway, they will never buy into anything that could even lead to communism. Why any of them are tolerating Trump's obvious pandering to Putin and those very real enemies of the U.S. I can't in a billion years imagine. No communism, a limit on socialism, that seems set in stone to me never mind what Bernie Sanders thinks could actually pay for itself... maybe in a hundred years you can soften the conservatives among you up enough but as it is right now the gap is bloody huge. Take the universal health care and education in the pipe and smoke it, it's a pipe dream, now focus on the do-able, the compromise, the best that practicality and the balance of a conservative 31% or whatever of the U.S. would actually sign on for. Converting them to the far left is never going to happen. Bernie and Rand Paul and any other visionaries... this is not a good time for you, you are fragmenting and dividing despite any best intentions. |
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 3, 2018 13:11:15 GMT -5
If you want to be the adult in the room (not saying I get there myself, I'm pretty worked up about a lot of the games of the alt-right and Trump most of the time) you don't pull stunts like that woman with the parody shtick on twitter to show-off how cleverer you think your side is. Does that make sense? You also don't exaggerate situations so you have hysterical women blocking buses from holding areas, or amplify simplistic outrage manufacturing items of your own like the screaming little girl photo who wasn't even separated from her parents as it turned out and that even made Time magazine's cover (with the photo-shopping that disgusts me when the extreme right types do it to protesters' signs or Michelle Obaba's figure). It's kind of like if Martin Luther King Jr. had popped a white-supremacist yelling at him in the jaw. Would sure feel good and be understandable, but then you aren't the adult. It takes strength not weakness to hold such a line, and to stick to going high when the other person goes low... the narrow path. There's no other way but two sides demonizing, and exaggerating, and 'but whatabout'-ing, each other to stupidland.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 3, 2018 13:52:56 GMT -5
I do understand what you're saying, but if people are going to bridge a gap, from the other perspective these things are the flipside of coin to them. They do see Daily Show/Colbert/SNL as totally hostile and slanted the way you see their various alt-right and similar slanted things. I'm going on the basis that we/you need an actual conservative party, and one of their foundations it seems to me is that communism is essentially evil (yes, on paper these things work perfectly but so far in reality Cuba seems to be about as good as it gets and it was propped up by Russia where they killed millions of their own people)... so anyway, they will never buy into anything that could even lead to communism. Why any of them are tolerating Trump's obvious pandering to Putin and those very real enemies of the U.S. I can't in a billion years imagine. No communism, a limit on socialism, that seems set in stone to me never mind what Bernie Sanders thinks could actually pay for itself... maybe in a hundred years you can soften the conservatives among you up enough but as it is right now the gap is bloody huge. Take the universal health care and education in the pipe and smoke it, it's a pipe dream, now focus on the do-able, the compromise, the best that practicality and the balance of a conservative 31% or whatever of the U.S. would actually sign on for. Converting them to the far left is never going to happen. Bernie and Rand Paul and any other visionaries... this is not a good time for you, you are fragmenting and dividing despite any best intentions. Respectfully, I fully disagree and believe you are coming from emotion rather than history there. On the first point though, you are right that "the other perspective" sees the satirical news shows as the flipside, but only because it is convenient to them. Because it is not true. You may can't try to build a bridge by indulging a disingenious lie. It's like the wife with an abusive husband who always finds him excuses, thinking it is her prerogative to find him a solution. On the second point, there's so much to say, but I would first argue that the conservative you talk about do not take for a second seriously that there are a lot of people in america who aren't communists and who see capitalism as essentially evil. So that leads us nowhere either. You talk about Russia (where again communism didn't kill millions of people, Stalin did. But I wonder who I should blame in the US then : was it Kissinger or capitalism who killed millions of people abroad and let loose drugs on the US streets to finance those unlawfull wars? ) and Cuba, but by the vast majority of the US conservatives, France, with 70+ million people, is exactly what they consider as communist (and it is run by a center governement). It actually had communists in the governements fairly often after the war, and between 1981 and 2016. It may even still have ones that switched party since the last election (Macron didn't have a party. Yes, the french president won the election without a party behind him). France has free universal healthcare, free college, great infrastructures thanks to the highest tax rates in Europe, etc. And if you are an EU citizen (520 million people), you can live and work in France and benefit from all those rights without limitations (since you are going to pay taxes in France). And yet, it never is described as a communist country... So we have to agree that in the US, the definition of what communism is actually is extremely vague. Putin's Russia is way more capitalistic than the US, so I see zero contradiction with Trump pandering with Putin and his deregulated capitalism ideals, as the later actually implemented it in Russia. So a conservative party like the one we currently have, no I don't think we need that, like at all. The conservative party you're talking about is long dead, or at least running on fumes. So the fact that they buy into whatever they believe is comunism or not is IMHO irrelevant, as they consider what France has as communism. The way you can have all that, is htrough strong labor unions and cooperatives, which capitalism actively seeks to destroy. Funny fact : throughout the western world, guess what is the corporation with the highest rate of union members ? {Spoiler: Click to show}
Company owners So no, Healthcare and education are not a pipe dream, that's a lie we're being told, easily rebuked by cost analysts, when you consider the tax cut Trump recently implemented, and the new one he seeks to, bypassing congress. The notion that Bernie Sanders is far left also is a lie. He is a social democrat, which is closer to the center than what Paul Ryan would be in most of the EU, and that's not even an opinion. But again, as I was wholly agreeing with Chaykin's text, I hold no hope for common sense and solidarity to enter the game with a winning hand.  |
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 3, 2018 17:36:42 GMT -5
So Stalin, Mao, and Putin are not communists? I have no idea what else I could say. Good luck following Bernie, he's a nice well meaning man, I enjoy listening to him, but I know it's not happening in the U.S. for a very long time if ever.
|
|
|
|
Post by comicsandwho on Aug 4, 2018 0:36:51 GMT -5
Yeah...I like to think I could see both sides of the issue...but 'hard core lefties' sound so brainwashed sometimes.
|
|
Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,222 
|
Post by Confessor on Aug 4, 2018 1:19:31 GMT -5
A lot of the time, what American's call "hard core lefties", we just call the Labour party here in the UK. |
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 4, 2018 1:38:40 GMT -5
So Stalin, Mao, and Putin are not communists? I have no idea what else I could say. Good luck following Bernie, he's a nice well meaning man, I enjoy listening to him, but I know it's not happening in the U.S. for a very long time if ever. Putin? A communist? You can't be serious. His party is as conservative as it gets, allied with the russian orthodox church, anti-globalist, etc... If you truly believe that Putin is a communist, I guess you are much less "center" than you think you are Stalin and Mao, well yeah, the power-hungry maniacs they were who closed their countries (the opposite to communism ideology!), they had nothing to do with the ideas of Karl Marx, no historian would say otherwise. Both are highly different, though. Again, I was giving you the exemple of France, which is in most ways what conservatives describe as communist these days. But you don't see them talking about France as an exemple of that, because it would make most of their argument fall appart. They only like to talk about France to denounce its dangerous gun laws, despite the fact that the US murder rate is nine times higher than the french one (seventeen times higher than the one in UK!)... And again, Bernie Sanders isn't a communist either, that's just fatcually incorect. He's simply a social-democrat, a completly different thing. Fox news like to say he is, because he went on a trip in Russia and is on the left, that's their only basis. But I don't really know where you got this idea that I thought "it" was going to happen in the US, as my last sentence quite explicitly said the contrary.  to Comicsandwho, what is a hardcore leftie? Do you see any here? |
|
|
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 4, 2018 5:59:35 GMT -5
There is no hardcore leftie party in the U.S., at least none that makes the news. There isn’t even a moderate left wing party! But I think that comicsandwho refers to groups who are very vocal about certain issues like cultural appropriation, gender fluidity, systematic racism and quote equity unquote. Such groups are often embraced by progressive parties in the U.S. and Canada, but their extreme views alienate many people from the center who are then tempted by more conservative agendas.
|
|
