|
Post by adamwarlock2099 on Aug 5, 2018 8:11:28 GMT -5
Oops! LOL...sorry, fellas. That's the danger of talking politics on a comic forum. Sometimes your fingers just go to the most familiar spelling. [img alt=" " src="//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/embarrassed.png" class="smile"] I edited my original post. Starlinism: Using 1-900 telephone hotlines to determine which children live or die... Id dial in and vote Jim Starlin 2020. He might end the universe but at least he’d be fair and impartial.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 5, 2018 12:37:54 GMT -5
You need minimum two functional parties for a democracy. In Canada nationally we currently have a sort of three and a half (the half being the Quebec only party) and few independent and (so far) tiny parties like Green with one maybe two seats at any one time.
Venezuela used to be a pretty livable and together country before their supposed socialist revolution took them fully off the rails, ugh, so much for revolutions. There's one case you wouldn't want to see as a socialist because they really did mess it up with communism and not in a nice way like 'you got chocolate in my peanut butter', hey... peanut butter cups, no, now people starve in Venezuela. Fubar. Transmogrifying into a typical South American military dictatorship, keeping people inline like Cuba and the Khmer Rouge did by saying the U.S. would invade but for us.
I guess we'll have to disagree about the KGB being some sort of apolitical entity separate from the politburo and communist party. I have no idea what you are drawing some of these things from, something new that I have not encountered. As for Charles de Gaulle, no Vioetnam war but for him and yet he had the 'gal'l to go into Quebec Canada and make his 'vive Quebec libre' speech. All he ever did was survive WWII in exile and then march around like he did something and insist Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam and their people belonged to the French lock stock and barrel, and literally under locks and the barrel of guns.
I would take Michael Moore as a reliable source for anything any more than a Limbaugh or Alex Jones. They make sheer outright propaganda, often the kind of divisive misinformation designed to set people at each other that the Soviet Union loved to seed enemy countries with, and it's supposedly no longer communist (ha) descendants are doing much too well with doing these days through facebook and twitter! Groups in the streets screaming, burning flags and fighting in Portland Oregon now, each with it's own youtube subscriptions to their telling it like it isn't gurus. Half truths, manufacturing outrage, got to get past this b.s. sometime.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 5, 2018 13:30:19 GMT -5
But please, by all means, tell me (us?) how in your opinion Russia (and Putin) in 2018 is a communist country. I'm sincerly asking, because I still don't see what makes you believe that. I'm not sure either what you mean with "I have no idea what you are drawing some of these things from, something new that I have not encountered." About De Gaulle, I never thought i'd ever defend the guy, but he did much more than what you're giving him credit for, the main one being allowing France to remain a fully autonomous country after WWII, managing to get France a seat at the NATO permanent council and becoming a nuclear power. He also was by all accounts a great writer, his "memories" tomes counting as some of the very best of the genre. But in my book, the algerian war is an unforgivable stain... I found you extremely harsh with Michael Moore, though : before anything, he is well intended, which is doubtfull about the two other exemples of extreme selfishness you named You seem to have developped a personnal animus against him for a specific point that I still find debatable, but I don't see how his goal to convince people that universal healthcare is possible in the US is a bad one, or even propaganda. But if you believe that probaganda and divisive misinformation is copyrighted by the "communists", the CIA, Kissinger & co's lawyers will probably send you a letter pretty soon I'd even suggest you read Alan Moore and Bill Sienkiewicz's extraordinary Brought To Light to serve as an introduction to this vast topic
|
|
|
Post by comicsandwho on Aug 5, 2018 13:33:21 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 5, 2018 15:49:03 GMT -5
Was there ever a question about France not remaining a fully autonomous country after WWII?
All I'm saying about Michael Moore, intentions being good subjectively not withstanding (I'm sure I'd find a lot more common ground with him that the modern day Lord Haw Haw blowhards of the so-called ultra-conservative right) is this... he is a poor source for information. He cannot be trusted to give the full picture on something, he leaves out a lot that doesn't fit his conclusion he wants to lead you to.
I may simply not have the time to go into a modern history of Russia from Yetsin on to ever satisfy you or do a credible job. The communist party is alive and well there and well in power, there is only one party politically and virtually nothing but token opposition allowed for long. It is a gangster's paradise with the state military and intelligence from communist inception to present for muscle. They are sham economy judged by capitalist standards. They are not much of a trading partner to anyone, and while Trump kisses the ass of the communist playbook agents of that state who got him barely elected he is at war with large trading partners like Canada and Europe over almost nothing. Just wait and watch is all I can say, that's the only thing that will 'prove' or disprove my positions and understanding. "Meet the new boss same as the old boss." It seems when I am non-binary and critique the left it pushes your buttons to defend them or say they aren't as bad. The two seeming extremes do meet in the place on the other side of the middle oftentimes.
Good luck with proving the health care thing to an obviously deeply dug in bunch who did almost nothing for six and a half years of Obama but repeal it over and over and over. It'd be great if it could be done, I'm not against it, but there are all kinds of powerful groups who do things even against their own interests! Comic companies cancelled profitable comic titles too because they wanted to do more superheroes (and the funny animal and cartoony comics were done on the west coast without them). It doesn't make sense maybe... but yet it is. If Michael Moore can't get his message across without misrepresenting something, leaving some stone cold facts out of things as a short cut, then he's not going to be that effective. If you are going to make points about treating illegal immigrants badly based on a photo of a little girl screaming who as it turned out actually was not separated from their parent you are blowing it the exact same way... short cuts or ends justify the means just muddies things, so much for 'good intention', for what then if you are going to manipulate with half-truths and sarcastic innuendo? Let's keep the information age for actual information, not disinformation which the enemies of democracy very much naive and active in the world still love to see us tripping all over. Splitting hairs to where you can say Putin isn't technically a communist anymore is saying he is just working with them very closely, he certainly was a member to get up to where he got before drunk bumbling Yeltsin, the laughable would-be counter-revolutionary, handed the store over to him. A game of smoke and mirrors with a lot of brutality and no freedom.
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2018 16:08:11 GMT -5
A plague on both their houses!
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2018 16:25:41 GMT -5
All I'm saying about Michael Moore, intentions being good subjectively not withstanding (I'm sure I'd find a lot more common ground with him that the modern day Lord Haw Haw blowhards of the so-called ultra-conservative right) is this... he is a poor source for information. He cannot be trusted to give the full picture on something, he leaves out a lot that doesn't fit his conclusion he wants to lead you to. That’s absolutely true. I sympathize with Moore’s cause, but he never shies from twisting or overemphasing certain facts so that they will seem to support his agenda. The New Russia party (Putin’s) is indeed very much in control of the country, but it has nothing to do with the communist party of Zyuganov. The communists are in the opposition and regularly denounce Putin for favouring oligarchs over what they perceive as the national interest. Putin’s party is very reactionary, and is aligned with the church (while the communists have a long tradition of atheism). Putin’s government does share its totalitarian ways with the communist party that ruled the USSR, but being an autocratic strongman does not make one a communist. Pinochet in Chile, Franco in Spain and Mussolini in Italy were sworn enemies of communism. Alas, I fear that you are all too right.The US givernment spends more money on healthcare than countries with socialized medicine, but ordinary people still have to pay for their own insurance. All that money has to go somewhere (insurance companies come to mind) and they are NOT going to let socialist measures kill the golden goose without a fight. Meanwhile, the public is being told that healthcare is horrible in Canada, Sweden, The UK, France and others, and that socialized medicine is a recipe for disaster (and never mind that bloody CUBA has a lower infant mortality rate). It will indeed be a difficult concept to sell, and I’m not sure that many politicians (even democrats) are willing to turn their back on the healthcare industry’s money.
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 5, 2018 16:28:23 GMT -5
Since when did being anti-fascist become a bad thing? Was a time we fought a whole World War on the precept of being anti-fascist.
|
|
|
Post by comicsandwho on Aug 5, 2018 16:55:09 GMT -5
Because the 'Antifa' movement is the strain of leftist that brands everything to their right as 'fascists'. And since both sides let their militant 'Let's riot' sides take over...the pox on both houses is well-deserved.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 5, 2018 17:00:02 GMT -5
Was there ever a question about France not remaining a fully autonomous country after WWII? I may simply not have the time to go into a modern history of Russia from Yetsin on to ever satisfy you or do a credible job. The communist party is alive and well there and well in power, there is only one party politically and virtually nothing but token opposition allowed for long. It is a gangster's paradise with the state military and intelligence from communist inception to present for muscle. They are sham economy judged by capitalist standards. They are not much of a trading partner to anyone, and while Trump kisses the ass of the communist playbook agents of that state who got him barely elected he is at war with large trading partners like Canada and Europe over almost nothing. Just wait and watch is all I can say, that's the only thing that will 'prove' or disprove my positions and understanding. "Meet the new boss same as the old boss." It seems when I am non-binary and critique the left it pushes your buttons to defend them or say they aren't as bad. The two seeming extremes do meet in the place on the other side of the middle oftentimes. short cuts or ends justify the means just muddies things, so much for 'good intention', for what then if you are going to manipulate with half-truths and sarcastic innuendo? Let's keep the information age for actual information, not disinformation which the enemies of democracy very much naive and active in the world still love to see us tripping all over. Splitting hairs to where you can say Putin isn't technically a communist anymore is saying he is just working with them very closely, he certainly was a member to get up to where he got before drunk bumbling Yeltsin, the laughable would-be counter-revolutionary, handed the store over to him. A game of smoke and mirrors with a lot of brutality and no freedom. Well, the US certainly wanted to make France a sort of sattelite state of the country, and throughout the cold war, France tried to develop the idea of a european defense instead of an atlantic one. A strategy which paid off and led France to not need the US military bases quicker than many other european countries. And even if France is a founding member of NATO, it's always been quite ambivalent with it. As for Russia... so a,y misconceptions there. The communist party is indeed alive, and is in the opposition in Russia, that's just factual. I don't know, just google it? Putin isn't working with any communists and has denounced them since 1991, when the system collapsed. He never was a member of the party, that also is factual, so I really don't know where you're getting your info, but it's deely deeply wrong. There is a real opposition in Russia, with at least 3 parties around or over 20%. In 2011, Putin lost the election, but the results were changed. That has been documented by all foreign observers. The next election, he actualy won, but only with 52%. None of this is opinion or belief, and the info is wildly available. Russia is very much a trading partner to many countries, you are completly wrong there. They are the main provider of gas to Europe, and form a very strong trade alliance with China, Brasil, and India, the BRIC you probably have recently heard of in the news, as opposed to the G8 (now 7). Russia is also a great trade partner with Turkey, Iran, and many other countries. But Russia's economy is not in great shape, that's the only truth to it. When you talk about information against disinformation, you're forgetting the current predominant part of hte equation : communication, the deceiving objectivity leitmotiv of the mainstream media. The very pedestrian but back then revolutionary concept of the medium being the message from MacLuhan has crosspolinated to every level of the political landscape, with the republicans denouncing journalists attacking them as biased at every instance, especially when they are right. They have managed to make many accept the idea that journalists should only care about communication, and that both messages should have equal representation, nonwithstanding relevance and honesty. This again is a longer conversation, but it goes IMHO hand in hand in that belief you seem to have that the actual political center lays right between the two parties in the US. For me, that is a very scary thought, that people could actually fall for that. But I'm used to it now, and the structural reasons are fairly obvious. I hope I'm missing some of your thoughts thoughand so much always gets lost in translation when you exchange on such ideas online, but at least we try I for one have been quite a few time to Russia, and not just Moscow, and I've tried to inform myself about its actual diversity, and I've actualy met communists there, I mean from the actual party. You're not pushing my buttons to defend the left when you critique it, only when you misrepresent it, and I wouldn't say you're pushing my buttons either, it's still a fairly civil and interesting conversation . I'm just completely baffled by this mythology you have about Putin. The only thing I think you got right about him is he's a thug with smart thug methods. But you seem to equate that with communism, when by that standard, you could do exactly the same with Bush sr and the CIA.
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2018 17:01:07 GMT -5
Since when did being anti-fascist become a bad thing? Was a time we fought a whole World War on the precept of being anti-fascist. As comicsandwho points out, the term anti-fascist has been co-opted by certain anti-system extremists who enjoy smashing windows and burning police cars. The term no longer simply means “one who opposes fascism”, just as the swastika is no longer simply an ancient Hindu symbol. In the video linked above, some “anti-fascists” were waving a soviet flag. Granted, the USSR was not a fascist state... but it was equally evil in its suppression of human liberties.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 5, 2018 17:20:48 GMT -5
Alas, I fear that you are all too right.The US givernment spends more money on healthcare than countries with socialized medicine, but ordinary people still have to pay for their own insurance. All that money has to go somewhere (insurance companies come to mind) and they are NOT going to let socialist measures kill the golden goose without a fight. Meanwhile, the public is being told that healthcare is horrible in Canada, Sweden, The UK, France and others, and that socialized medicine is a recipe for disaster (and never mind that bloody CUBA has a lower infant mortality rate). It will indeed be a difficult concept to sell, and I’m not sure that many politicians (even democrats) are willing to turn their back on the healthcare industry’s money. Well, thankfully, that fight isn't starting just now. What Bernie Sanders did in 2015 was the start of it, and now, people on both side want this in a majority. The seed has been planted, and as history shows in the US, the people gets what it wants. I've been baffled if we didn't get it by 2030, which is around the corner. You are right mentioning the insurance companies obviously, which are 90% part of the issue (the pharma being the remaining, but without the private insurance company system, it looses most of its power). But when you say they aren't gonna let it happen, htey been fighting that for a long time, and they are finally seing the danger. The public is being fed that message at Fox News, that is for sure, but not unanimously, and less so than ever. The selling has started quite strongly, with Sanders, and he's found strong torch bearers, and will find more as Trump's election seem to have revigorated youth's involvement in politics Well, as vague as the easily thrown-around antifa denominator is, that's quite the paranoid statement there. First off, the "everyone not a scioalist or anarchist is a fascist" claim couldn't be further from the truth. Secondly, whenever we hear about antifa, it's always because of a reaction action : they will turn up whenever white supremacists or their ilk take on the street to demonstrate, that's their MO, plus the process of identifying them and exposing them. They aren't trying to gain power, as it goes against the very principle of anarchism. But yes, for the past year or so, the media started to throw around the denominator as if it was agiven and established one in the mainstream debate, which is pathetic, since it's only got into the mainstream recently, when the far right started to weaponize the word, using it as scapegoat for their crowds and beyond. Exactly, it's now been deprived of it sense by the far right rebranding the term to describe anarchic protests against them, broad branding a wave of disorganized protests with the mandatory wild dogs, as an organized and identified entity to be used as a scapegoat as Trump did with his founding "there's good people on both sides", implicitly equating organized neo-nazi movements with its disorganized protesters. The biggest crimes of a neo nazi starts with hate speech, while with the so-called antifa, it starts with protesting that hate speech, and sometimes ends up with vandalism. Balancing the two seems very dangerous to me, as it obviously is the main goal of the right media since they came up with this new "wolf".
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,440
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Aug 5, 2018 20:20:12 GMT -5
Exactly, it's now been deprived of it sense by the far right rebranding the term to describe anarchic protests against them, broad branding a wave of disorganized protests with the mandatory wild dogs, as an organized and identified entity to be used as a scapegoat as Trump did with his founding "there's good people on both sides", implicitly equating organized neo-nazi movements with its disorganized protesters. The biggest crimes of a neo nazi starts with hate speech, while with the so-called antifa, it starts with protesting that hate speech, and sometimes ends up with vandalism. Balancing the two seems very dangerous to me, as it obviously is the main goal of the right media since they came up with this new "wolf". I’m not sure I would say “so-called Antifa”, since it’s the adherents of that philosophy who call themselves that. But yes, their behaviour is easily used to paint all protests against the far right as being based in anarchy, and that is a worrying thing. One must be able to protest far right ideas without being branded a troublemaker. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my ally. In fact, if I’m a decent person who only wants to oppose neo-nazis marching in the streets of my city, an enemy of my enemy who starts breaking windows is also my enemy, since my basic goal is to encourage the development of a peaceful society. We’ve seen that in Montreal in the past few years, when Antifa activists were booted out of peaceful marches backing various social causes. Their violent ways were not tolerated by the protestors. It’s a good thing they basically have a uniform, because they’re easily spotted!
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Aug 5, 2018 20:21:25 GMT -5
I thought the New Russia Party and the Communist Party were two peas in the same pod trying to look like some kind of opposing forces rather than actually being opposing forces. They seem to use all the same methods and levers of power. So there are the supposed true believers in communism and then there are the fascists pretending they are successful businessmen or something? And they are actually different how other than in some names? Is there an alternative to Pravda as the state newspaper?
In the U.S. this 'Q anon' thing sure seems typical of recent Russian backed goofiness. I'm sorry you are joining with Trump supporters to warm up to Russia because to me the place is fubar and pretty obviously our enemy. Putin is a murdering thug and he's led his country into a state of corruption and criminality that should be isolated and not soft peddled at all. I wish Trump would go where he's more appreciated, Russia as he obviously can't handle the victimization and unfairness he gets in America. I sure would not want to live there, nor do I imagine most Russians who have a chance to leave. I think the big lie is not to have something in the middle involving compromises but radical revolutionaries or pro-Russian far left types leaving out a lot of real details outside what is on a piece of paper or screen.
Putin rose to a point under the communist Soviet Union to the top of a very non-independent KGB for that coup figurehead Yetsin to hand off to, after an actual reformer within the party Gorbchev was forced into exile, I'm not buying this jazz about him being entirely an opponent of that same Communist Party and it's structures which still operate there.
I just see a lot of slanted propaganda from the fringe, not a balancing centrism. Cutting through this kind of double-talk and semantic deliberate confusion is what people in the U.S. are going to have to do if their nation is going to survive. It is under attack from many sides.
|
|
cee
Full Member
Posts: 105
|
Post by cee on Aug 6, 2018 2:09:14 GMT -5
I’m not sure I would say “so-called Antifa”, since it’s the adherents of that philosophy who call themselves that. But yes, their behaviour is easily used to paint all protests against the far right as being based in anarchy, and that is a worrying thing. One must be able to protest far against far right ideas without being branded a troublemaker. The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my ally. In fact, if I’m a decent person who only wants to oppose neo-nazis marching in the streets of my city, an enemy of my enemy who starts breaking windows is also my enemy, since my basic goal is to encourage the development of a peaceful society. We’ve seen that in Montreal in the past few years, when Antifa activists were booted out of peaceful marches backing various social causes. Their violent ways were not tolerated by the protestors. It’s a good thing they basically have a uniform, because they’re easily spotted! Never heard of that uniform thing. But I'll trust you, even if I believe that must have been a special case, as antifa is a very loose organisation, if it even is one. I believe it mostly brand the protesters who antgonize te extreme right demonstrations as this rag-tag team of loosly connected individuals. How do you become a member, since here is no organisation, no website, nothing but local small groups at best? But even if you adhere to the idea that antifa is a real organization, it has so far never been involved in a single murder, contrary to the hundreds of neo-nazi/white supremacists ones, and teir domestic terrorism. So again, branding those as both extremes of the same dynamic is highly disingenious, also considering again that one is active and the other one is reactive. All in all, antifa is a scarecrow and nothing to really worry about. There is nothing and no one good on te side of the white supremacists. And if you effectively fight tem as a nation (administration & people), antifa doesn't exist anymore
|
|