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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 15, 2018 12:09:56 GMT -5
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 15, 2018 12:46:29 GMT -5
I am surprised to read that, as Clinton was an excellent president! He inherited an economy that looked like an undending recession and, like Obama, oversaw its recovery. (Agreed, presidents don’t do that on their own, but it still happened under his watch). Bush Sr. had wisely put the U.S. as, shall we say, first among equals when it came to international alliances, and Clinton brilliantly built on that. He was a great deal-maker, able to reach across the aisle, and I remember a quip from his second election campaign : people said the GOP had a difficult time finding a suitable opponent to the president, because the best Republican candidate at the time would have been.... Bill Clinton. I lived five years in the US under Clinton, and without getting into hyperbole, I thought that the US at the time was like a new Athens... promoting free enterprise, democracy and world peace. I find it extremely sad that all he seems to be remembered for is his stupid extra-marital affair. He made his own bed and must lie in it, I suppose, but Clinton’s America was a great one and I wish he was remembered for it. Eh, Clinton kinda got lucky with the 90s tech boom. I don't think too many of his policies can be directly linked to the boom the economy saw during the decade. Yes, that is true, he was lucky to be there at the same time we enjoyed a technology boom and at a time oil was so cheap that it was almost viewed as a problem. Nevertheless, it wasn't all luck: his policies did favour global economic development, which contributed to the economy's health. He also managed to balance budgets at the end of his mandate. He did not start a useless war on bogus grounds, nor destabilized an entire region, nor gave unnecessary huge tax cuts that end up being paid for by increasing public debt; under his leadership you guys stopped Serbia from performing what looked more and more like a genocide, acted like a honest broker between Israel and Palestine, and were really seen as "the leaders of the free world". That should certainly, I think, be to Clinton's credit. I preferred Obama as an individual, but Clinton really delivered.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 15, 2018 13:12:40 GMT -5
Eh, Clinton kinda got lucky with the 90s tech boom. I don't think too many of his policies can be directly linked to the boom the economy saw during the decade. Yes, that is true, he was lucky to be there at the same time we enjoyed a technology boom and at a time oil was so cheap that it was almost viewed as a problem. Nevertheless, it wasn't all luck: his policies did favour global economic development, which contributed to the economy's health. He also managed to balance budgets at the end of his mandate. He did not start a useless war on bogus grounds, nor destabilized an entire region, nor gave unnecessary huge tax cuts that end up being paid for by increasing public debt; under his leadership you guys stopped Serbia from performing what looked more and more like a genocide, acted like a honest broker between Israel and Palestine, and were really seen as "the leaders of the free world". That should certainly, I think, be to Clinton's credit. I preferred Obama as an individual, but Clinton really delivered. The balanced budget was due in large part to co-operation between Congressional Democrats and Republicans (under Newt Gingrich of all people!). Sadly, that was probably the last time bi-partisanship was seen in our federal government.
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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 15, 2018 14:52:56 GMT -5
Some people here are expressing incredulity that anyone could still support Trump. The incredulity goes both ways. I'm on another site, Quora, which has a more politically balanced membership, and I regularly see questions there like "How can anyone still be {liberal/anti-Trump/a Democrat} when things are going so well?"
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 15, 2018 14:57:08 GMT -5
Yes, that is true, he was lucky to be there at the same time we enjoyed a technology boom and at a time oil was so cheap that it was almost viewed as a problem. Nevertheless, it wasn't all luck: his policies did favour global economic development, which contributed to the economy's health. He also managed to balance budgets at the end of his mandate. He did not start a useless war on bogus grounds, nor destabilized an entire region, nor gave unnecessary huge tax cuts that end up being paid for by increasing public debt; under his leadership you guys stopped Serbia from performing what looked more and more like a genocide, acted like a honest broker between Israel and Palestine, and were really seen as "the leaders of the free world". That should certainly, I think, be to Clinton's credit. I preferred Obama as an individual, but Clinton really delivered. The balanced budget was due in large part to co-operation between Congressional Democrats and Republicans (under Newt Gingrich of all people!). Sadly, that was probably the last time bi-partisanship was seen in our federal government. Absolutely! And one thing everyone agreed on back then was that Clinton was uncommonly good at negotiating with the other side. It takes two to tango, but it takes one to lead. That's probably why Clinton did so good on the international scene too, being able to treat negotiations as something else than a zero-sum game. That's one of the traits I admired in him as a leader.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 15, 2018 15:21:14 GMT -5
Some people here are expressing incredulity that anyone could still support Trump. The incredulity goes both ways. I'm on another site, Quora, which has a more politically balanced membership, and I regularly see questions there like "How can anyone still be {liberal/anti-Trump/a Democrat} when things are going so well?"That question's far easier to answer.
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Post by beccabear67 on Nov 15, 2018 15:21:57 GMT -5
Very short on time but wanted to make a comment about Bill Clinton's era. I saw him as the start of more aggressive deregulation to a stupid degree and global trade even with totally unequal partners. A traced a lot of problems that came home to roost in late 2008 and at other points to his administration. Bush Sr. said what he figured would get him elected and then did a lot of what Dukakis prescribed as a fiscally responsible conservative after a more than tripling of the national U.S. debt under Reagan and voters hated him for that because of the 'read my lips, no new taxes' bit. Things cost what they cost and needed infrastructure costs a lot more if you let it deteriorate and fall apart (penny-wise, pound foolish). As for Nixon opening trade with china... biggest mistake for the west ever in my view. You know how many millions of their own people starved and died and turned each other in under Mao right? These people would've probably collapsed and been gone if only we'd stuck to our principles and isolated them as with Russia. Instead they practically own half the world and now have a new president for life. What they did in Tibet and Tienanmen Square made me outraged and sick and I won't be letting up on that non-manufactured nor faux outrage ever. Communism is ultimately evil to me, if that's unfashionable I don't care, you only have to look and learn the fates of a lot of the true believers in it, the ones that aren't simply thugs and crooks. So in a choice I'd accept pro-Trump people as at least partially relatable over the excusers of tyrants (of which I do count Trumpo himself at least half the time, yikes). I do find a lot of pro-Trump folks tend to share my worry about communist China at least. Just watch for a move by them to grab Taiwan in the next few years if the west seems weak enough to allow it. You have to pout up some distance between yourself and who you are and this subject of politics. When it becomes about personal or clan identity look out. Buying into a brand loyalty is not something much good in this area really. A lot of people get manipulated into a wannabe revolution of one sort or another, and filled with half-truth based outrage, but remember that anyone trying to sell a new revolution is basically saying your original one wasn't successful. If "by their fruits ye shall know them" I have to say that the U.S. revolution for independence was very very successful and to the world's benefit in so many ways. Now really, people like the Clintons and Dick Cheney and so forth need to go away. It used to be what losers did, we'd have been so much better if Nixon had done that as he promised way back "not have Dick Nixon to kick around anymore, the original republican victim). If only Eisenhower could return though, everyone liked him I think (except some alt right nee-cons who seem to make him a target for flogging... at least Woodrow Wilson deserved that fate). There, let it hang out a bit more. I wish people felt free to do the same without getting personal. Some have to stay away I can understand, many the last twenty years or so have said they can't watch the news anymore and don't want to know. I say knowing is still doing something, but sometimes everyone needs a break and to put it all in perspective. Anti-Semitic hate incidents up 37% in 2017 and yet who has a Jewish son-in-law... it's not that simple, but I saw racism against blacks and anger at women from early on with the current Pres. really just not much to choose from and a lot who threw in with him did so in desperation, even some blacks and women, so... just left with, get well soon.
P.S. - thanks for reading, I've read everything here. If you don't read that is okay too.
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Post by impulse on Nov 15, 2018 15:26:34 GMT -5
Some people here are expressing incredulity that anyone could still support Trump. The incredulity goes both ways. I'm on another site, Quora, which has a more politically balanced membership, and I regularly see questions there like "How can anyone still be {liberal/anti-Trump/a Democrat} when things are going so well?" Which brings me back to my question posted earlier which I would still like to know, why specifically are people still supporting Trump? Aside from a few biased sources, the news us overwhelmingly and consistently damning. Aside from the abundantly wealthy, who are things going so well for? Real wages are stagnant, children are in cages, ACA was neutered and premiums are going up, Trump is being peppered with accusations, lawsuits, and potentially facing charges, multiple people in his admin have plead/been found guilty, the guy is literally laughed at on the world stage. The economy is doing well, but it was already doing well on his first day and he just managed to not derail the already existing upward trend from the past years. I am brought back to earlier comments in this thread about not all political opinions being the same ans wondering about the level of ignorance, willful or otherwise, it takes to hand wave this all away. If I am missing something, someone please tell me what it is, but other than the Fox news echo chamber, it is not looking good for him.
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Post by impulse on Nov 15, 2018 15:44:44 GMT -5
Now really, people like the Clintons and Dick Cheney and so forth need to go away. Now, this is one thing most Democrat and Republican voters can probably agree on. Hillary Clinton needs to GO AWAY and STAY AWAY from the political discourse. True or not, fair or not, her baggage makes her absolutely toxic and she needs to just go away.
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 15, 2018 15:56:55 GMT -5
As for Nixon opening trade with china... biggest mistake for the west ever in my view. You know how many millions of their own people starved and died and turned each other in under Mao right? These people would've probably collapsed and been gone if only we'd stuck to our principles and isolated them as with Russia. Instead they practically own half the world and now have a new president for life. What they did in Tibet and Tienanmen Square made me outraged and sick and I won't be letting up on that non-manufactured nor faux outrage ever. Communism is ultimately evil to me, if that's unfashionable I don't care, you only have to look and learn the fates of a lot of the true believers in it, the ones that aren't simply thugs and crooks. So in a choice I'd accept pro-Trump people as at least partially relatable over the excusers of tyrants (of which I do count Trumpo himself at least half the time, yikes). I do find a lot of pro-Trump folks tend to share my worry about communist China at least. Just watch for a move by them to grab Taiwan in the next few years if the west seems weak enough to allow it. I'm an ardent anti-communist as well, but even though its strangely gaining popularity again among my generation, I don't see it as a bigger threat to our nation than Trump's nationalist/facist tide.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 15, 2018 16:14:25 GMT -5
As for Nixon … I'm not particularly impressed that he "opened up China."
He made his political career as a red-baiter and was constantly in the forefront of accusing people to the left of him of being communists or communist sympathizers. So no Democrat who wanted better relations with China could speak up without fear of Nixon and the rest of the GOP piling on and calling them communists.
But suddenly … it was fine when Nixon needed to give the public a distraction from all the rumors that were going on about a mysterious break-in at the Watergate hotel.
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Post by impulse on Nov 15, 2018 16:31:15 GMT -5
I'm an ardent anti-communist as well, but even though its strangely gaining popularity again among my generation, I don't see it as a bigger threat to our nation than Trump's nationalist/facist tide. Now, hold on a second. Are you talking about the social democrat stuff like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, or do you mean you are seeing people actually advocate for actual communism? I want to be sure I understand you and that you're not conflating the two because they are MASSIVELY different things and not remotely comparable at all. I have not seen literally a single person AT ALL from ANY generation advocating for actual communism. Like, at all. None. Not saying it can't be happening at all, and it's not like my experience is universal, but that seems pretty fringe if it's a thing at all.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 15, 2018 16:45:53 GMT -5
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Post by Pharozonk on Nov 15, 2018 17:03:49 GMT -5
I'm an ardent anti-communist as well, but even though its strangely gaining popularity again among my generation, I don't see it as a bigger threat to our nation than Trump's nationalist/facist tide. Now, hold on a second. Are you talking about the social democrat stuff like Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez, or do you mean you are seeing people actually advocate for actual communism? I want to be sure I understand you and that you're not conflating the two because they are MASSIVELY different things and not remotely comparable at all. I have not seen literally a single person AT ALL from ANY generation advocating for actual communism. Like, at all. None. Not saying it can't be happening at all, and it's not like my experience is universal, but that seems pretty fringe if it's a thing at all. No, I'm talking about actual Marxist-Leninists. Lots of millennials are into it for some reason. I definitely knew more than a few publicly open communists in college.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2018 17:07:23 GMT -5
I was talking to a friend today over a late Breakfast and he was telling me all about this and this is one of the most idiotic thing that he ever heard in his life and the Judge did the right thing to dismiss it altogether. This is good news that we can use today ... the unhappy candidate gets nothing to gain for.
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