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Post by beccabear67 on Mar 24, 2019 0:01:03 GMT -5
I was thinking more in terms of the class system, not collectivism vs. individualism... North America drew a lot of second and third sons who were excess in Europe where the first son inherited and led where the father had trod before etc. It was just a matter of time and now we have had family dynasties for well over a hundred years and less class mobility all the time. Whenever they advertise a product here as having "advanced European formula" or "luxurious European styling" I remember the earliest Alpha Flight comic that mentioned "advanced Canadian technology". "Didn't know the Canadians were as clever as all that!" "You've been a naughty moose!" - The Major from Fawlty Towers.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 24, 2019 11:15:19 GMT -5
I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not arguing that it's right or wrong, simply that it's a way of thinking that's distinctly American in comparison to most European countries, and plays a large part in how our political system has shaped itself over the years. I got you. And I agree. I would contend that the U.S. has been hamstrung in a huge number of ways by the fetishization of its creation myths. This is particularly true in the era of mass media. You see it all the time in items as simple as the metric system and moving up in complexity. "It works in every other country in the world." "It won't work in the U.S." "Why?" "Reasons." I also see it all the time in the insistence in comparing the U.S. to the worst in the world. "Well we're better than Iran at women's rights." "See what would happen to you if you enter North Korea without permission." Because it's helpful to compare yourself to the worst most repressive countries on Earth. But comparisons to countries that are better at something than the U.S. are met with "That can't work here." "Why." "Reasons." Or..."We're special." America is held hostage by the myth of American Exceptionalism and the fetish for the Creation Myth.
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Post by beccabear67 on Mar 24, 2019 12:40:56 GMT -5
Land of opportunity isn't entirely a myth to me. I think, perhaps moreso in the past, Canadians can be particularly aware of the lack of opportunities for artists and creative people in Canada, or having to battle heavily against your own people (the old wannabe-NYC Toronto mentality I call it, where if it's from Toronto it's second rate, and if it's from elsewhere in Canada it's a total joke) or do the whole thing yourself (think Captain Canuck and Cerebus). Musicians, actors, comic artists before Fed Ex express... it used to be you simply had to leave Canada (think Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, William Shatner, John Candy). An actual meritocracy is mostly a myth situation though, some of the biggest examples of a bootstraps rags to riches person will turn out to be heavily compromised in reality or have some other creative person's skeleton in the closet who got stepped on (Edison is said to have copied from a number of other now obscure people and used connections at the patent office to deny them and ensure his credit). We love it though when there is a real example, exceptional though it would be, it gives hope! Under the restrictive old European class systems if you were not born just right you were locked in for a lifetime to a pre-scripted life with the only other choice being further downward. Even housing is rationed in many places there still, it's just not available to have something bigger or better, or just different (or people don't do that). Japan is a lot like that as well, so not just a European situation. People are born and live generations on the same street all the time outside the U.S. In the U.S. the story goes if you have a better mousetrap doors can open to you, to capitalize on it mainly but there are things like admiration for work and the individual person's skills, not who their father is or if they have money (Trumpo is never much a throwback to a non-American hedgemony there, sheer entitlement to claim geniushood based on genes which he will actually mention sometimes, having good genes Trumps everything for him which is why he is such a huge useless no idea what work is mess. They talk about dynasties like the old monarchies predicated on generational wealth accumulation, and they step on a lot of others and blame a lot of others while getting those others to write their bestseller books and design their product lines, "buyer beware" America). The U.S.A. put a man on the moon. That is still going to be a huge thing in a hundred years, sorry if you don't want to wear that all the time. I'll choose the hope that we can still allow for and even support the genuinely exceptional person to all our benefits than the kind of old world idea of everything structured and frozen and immobile, "great" only for the well born and extensively funded from birth. The pursuit of happiness and ensuring liberty for all regardless of race or creed thing. Not all bad. Sometimes you have to have been outside looking in to see what really still is and has been special about the U.S. Model Ts and Trans Ams, Mickey Mouse and Superman, McDonalds and Cheez-Its, Edgar Rice Burroughs and Neil Armstrong, Susan B. Anthony and Martin Luther King Jr., Elvis and Chuck Berry! That kinda stuff didn't happen elsewhere as often or at all. Opportunity is something to cherish and help to nurture for others because it's best for us all ultimately. Celebrating the individual in the positive sense is in opposition to the simplistic old thinking of celebrating the right family breeding. Those people are welcome to their bizarre in-bred vision like that clown that said he would be dating his own daughter if she wasn't his daughter because she's obviously a ten... it should be that laughable and that devoid of worth!
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 24, 2019 16:08:46 GMT -5
"The U.S.A. put a man on the moon. That is still going to be a huge thing in a hundred years, sorry if you don't want to wear that all the time."
Can't speak for everyone else, but I'll wear that proudly, however vicariously.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 24, 2019 16:16:08 GMT -5
It's fine that we can celebrate Neil Armstrong. But Armstrong was the first person to acknowledge that it took 400,000 engineers, scientists and technicians to put him on the moon. Which doesn't take away from the accomplishments of he, Aldrin and Collins. But it's still that American myopia of the individual doing everything when it is very seldom the case.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 24, 2019 16:54:11 GMT -5
It's fine that we can celebrate Neil Armstrong. But Armstrong was the first person to acknowledge that it took 400,000 engineers, scientists and technicians to put him on the moon. Which doesn't take away from the accomplishments of he, Aldrin and Collins. But it's still that American myopia of the individual doing everything when it is very seldom the case. And that's why I respect Armstrong so much. I knew and loved one of the guys who worked on the lunar lander. What a moment, collectively, that was. The space program was an example of what can be accomplished by a nation as rich, talented and lucky as ours.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 24, 2019 19:27:44 GMT -5
Goodness... This is both on the nose and quite moving.
One can tell that the actor cares deeply about the subject. (No edit either... this was all done in one take). Great explanation of the current popularity of populism.
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Post by Warmonger on Mar 25, 2019 14:31:56 GMT -5
Michael Avenatti arrested and facing up to 50 years for trying to extort Nike.
LOL
What a Monday
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 25, 2019 18:58:07 GMT -5
Yeah, Warmonger , what a Monday. Here's what we knew all along and what we still know (with appreciation to Charles Pierce): The Russians ratfcked (to use the great term assigned to such misdeeds by Donald Segretti) the 2016 election. They were very good at it. They wanted to put Donald Trump in the White House. They helped get him in and he doesn't give a flying Fig Newton what Putin did to get him there. The Russians are going to try to do it again. They are still very good at it. They still want to keep Donald Trump in the White House. He still doesn't care what they will do to ratfck the 2020 election. And apparently, neither do his slavering minions in the GOP and "the heartland." So, yeah, good day for the avatar of willful ignorance and autocracy.
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Post by Warmonger on Mar 25, 2019 19:41:39 GMT -5
Yeah, Warmonger , what a Monday. Here's what we knew all along and what we still know (with appreciation to Charles Pierce): The Russians ratfcked (to use the great term assigned to such misdeeds by Donald Segretti) the 2016 election. They were very good at it. They wanted to put Donald Trump in the White House. They helped get him in and he doesn't give a flying Fig Newton what Putin did to get him there. The Russians are going to try to do it again. They are still very good at it. They still want to keep Donald Trump in the White House. He still doesn't care what they will do to ratfck the 2020 election. And apparently, neither do his slavering minions in the GOP and "the heartland." So, yeah, good day for the avatar of willful ignorance and autocracy. Yeah, the Russians tried to influence the election...and neither Trump, anyone involved with his campaign, or even a single solitary American colluded with them. Ya know, the complete opposite of the garbage that dummies like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Shumer, Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, etc have been spewing for 2 1/2 years. Not to mention the “journalists” and media pundits like Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, and Joe Scarborough. And tons of you guys on the left took the bait without hesitation. Say it with me...”Witch Hunt”.
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Post by Prince Hal on Mar 25, 2019 20:28:48 GMT -5
Yeah, Warmonger , what a Monday. Here's what we knew all along and what we still know (with appreciation to Charles Pierce): The Russians ratfcked (to use the great term assigned to such misdeeds by Donald Segretti) the 2016 election. They were very good at it. They wanted to put Donald Trump in the White House. They helped get him in and he doesn't give a flying Fig Newton what Putin did to get him there. The Russians are going to try to do it again. They are still very good at it. They still want to keep Donald Trump in the White House. He still doesn't care what they will do to ratfck the 2020 election. And apparently, neither do his slavering minions in the GOP and "the heartland." So, yeah, good day for the avatar of willful ignorance and autocracy. Yeah, the Russians tried to influence the election...and neither Trump, anyone involved with his campaign, or even a single solitary American colluded with them. Ya know, the complete opposite of the garbage that dummies like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Shumer, Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, etc have been spewing for 2 1/2 years. Not to mention the “journalists” and media pundits like Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, and Joe Scarborough. And tons of you guys on the left took the bait without hesitation. Say it with me...”Witch Hunt”. And yet, Trump and the GOP have done exactly Jack Spit to recent any of it from happening again. Because patriotism, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 22:19:18 GMT -5
Quote from Walt Disney
This is something that our current President lacks ...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Mar 25, 2019 23:10:41 GMT -5
Yeah, the Russians tried to influence the election...and neither Trump, anyone involved with his campaign, or even a single solitary American colluded with them. Ya know, the complete opposite of the garbage that dummies like Hillary Clinton, Chuck Shumer, Nancy Pelosi, Adam Schiff, etc have been spewing for 2 1/2 years. Not to mention the “journalists” and media pundits like Rachel Maddow, Don Lemon, and Joe Scarborough. And tons of you guys on the left took the bait without hesitation. Say it with me...”Witch Hunt”. That's not exactly true..'not enough evidence to indict' is not the same as 'no one colluded with them'.. especially since we don't have the report yet.. just a summary from an attorney general that was appointed by Trump for the express purpose of making this investigation go away.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 25, 2019 23:25:03 GMT -5
Quote from Walt DisneyThis is something that our current President lacks ... Except, in practice, Walt's idea of leadership was very authoritarian and deeply conservative. In one of his two books, Chuck jones talks of a prank pulled by a Disney animator (or two). It seems that the Disney's had a stable, near where the animators worked. As a result, there was an abundance of very large horseflies. They caught some and taped/glued pieces of tissue paper, that said "Vote for Roosevelt" on them and released them by the Disney home. Walt went ape and sent Roy Disney out there to get rid of the offending slogans. Now, that may be a yarn; but, Walt hated Roosevelt and the New Deal.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2019 23:47:47 GMT -5
codystarbuck ... I understand that and I knew that too ... but, that quote was my way of saying and addressing the nonsense that Trump did ever since became President of USA.
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