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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 13:26:56 GMT -5
I tell you what, thwhtguardian. If I ever have a political conversation with a conservative where I'm not bombarded by name-calling, talking points, straw man arguments, hypocrisy, double standards, slippery slopes and other rhetorical devices, I'll let you know. I don't much appreciate the way you're mischaracterizing my original statements about discussions with conservatives. I have not said they are all terrible people. Some of them are very good people with many wonderful qualities. That's part of the tragedy, that the conservative movement has been hijacked by awful, greedy leaders. I don't even understand your "I know which ones are X" remark. I was talking about people I have talked to about politics who identify as conservatives. I was not saying "I just know which ones are conservatives" and it's unfortunate you did not give me the benefit of the doubt over this misunderstanding. You made a broad negative generalization about a large group of people based on interactions with a small percentage of those people, what did I mischaracterize? Here's what I said: And this: And here's how you set up your response: You were very careful about saying "I don't know about you" to give yourself some cover, but you still responded to my specific remarks about the "liberal media" and the conservative view of reality as if I said "half of these people are crazy" and "these people are terrible." (And, yes, I do think many conservative leaders are terrible. The base is just gullible and lacks critical skills.) And shaxper said this: And responded as if I had made the "loud mothed ignorant conservative" remark as referring to all conservatives. Here's a reminder of what I actually said: And: No "loud mouth ignorant conservatives." No "half of these people are crazy." No "these people are terrible." Petulant, selfish, lacking critical thinking skills, yes. But no "loudmouths," no "these people are crazy." No "these people are terrible." This is what I mean by mischaracterizing my statements. Have you ever talked to a conservative who admitted that the "liberal media" is a lame talking point? Have you ever talked to a conservative who admitted that it was wrong to accuse their opponents of treason? I would love to hear about such a thing. I would love even more to hear about either of these things happening in great numbers. I respect you both and I am not harboring any ill will about this exchange. You're just not convincing me that I'm wrong. I have way too much experience with conservatives and their lazy ways of thinking to be swayed by the idea that there must be some thoughtful, sensible conservatives just because there must be. In my experience it seems naïve.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 12, 2015 13:59:02 GMT -5
I will concede that there might be some thoughtful, sensible conservatives. My point is that, almost 15 years after Sept. 11, 2001, and that period where the Republican leadership was - almost across-the-board - accusing people like me of being traitors, I have seen little evidence that there are conservatives who are thoughtful or sensible when it comes to pretty much any subject that matters in governing. That period when they couldn't accuse too many people of treason too fast? No one in the conservative movement has ever come to grips with that. They have had 15 years for somebody to say "Yeah, we went too far. The attacks on, for example, John Kerry were disgraceful and the GOP should be deeply ashamed of that." I would be more comfortable with evidence. Fifteen years is a long time to go through without seeing any evidence of thoughtful, sensible conservatives. You guys are saying I'm wrong because I'm making a blanket statement. A better way to show me my mistake would be to point to these thoughtful, sensible conservatives. So how close have you been following the GOP debates? I asked that a few comments back and nobody responded. Let's break it down this way, if you take all the hateful pundits, all the totally hawkish conservative lawmakers, the people you worked with on that newspaper and anyone you've conversed with online you get what, maybe a 600 people? Let's be really generous and say your sample size is 2,000 people. The population of the united states is 318.9 million people, of which 174.9 million people are registered voters(which I suppose is the more important number for us to consider) making that percentage who are conservative to equal to 68.2 million people. So, taking that number and comparing it to your sample size means that you are judging 68.2 million based on your experiences with about .0029 percent of them...does that sound like a ratio that is likely to give you an accurate view of the whole? But heck, let's toss that aside, you've also made a judgement of this population based on who they've elected...but only about 15% of conservatives are said to approve of congress, so how then can we say these politicians truly represent their electorate? The answer? You can't, at least not honestly. Now, you can perhaps blame those who elected those officials for the decisions they've made in office, but you can't say those decisions represent the beliefs of those people. I think in order to answer the question of the divide between that approval rating and the people who elected them ties into the question Adamwarlock posed earlier. The fact is that as humans we are complicated creatures and our feelings are likely to range along the political spectrum from issue to issue and that how we choose to identify ourselves depends on which topics you feel are most important, and as Slam pointed out even that may change over time. So although yes, 38% of the electorate identifies as conservative that doesn't mean that there is a unified front among them, but a range of opinions.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Nov 12, 2015 14:08:15 GMT -5
And most conservatives won't even talk to you if you won't meekly accept this easily-disproven talking point. I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. I'm hesitant to draw conclusions about an entire group of people. For every loud mouthed ignorant conservative, there are four more who are generally sensible, even if they are looking at different facts than you and I. Your experiences with conservatives are much different than mine. A demographic of "generally sensible" people wouldn't have such an awful field of candidates to choose from. And I don't think the two sides are forming their opinions from different facts. "Facts" are things that are true, that actually happened. The two sides are forming their differing opinions from different realities. One reality is largely based on things that really happened. The other reality is based on things that conservatives believe in really hard. That's how I see it. I've been following politics and talking to people about politics for forty years. My opinions are based on my experiences, including a very unpleasant stint at a very right-wing daily newspaper. Loud mouthed conservatives were Shax's words, not yours, that's true but further in his comment he goes on to say that despite those pundits the people themselves are generally sensible to which you disagreed to the point of putting sensible in quotations. And yes, half of these people are crazy or terrible are my words, but what are they if you don't think they're generally sensible? If I'm terribly mischaracterizing your views which words would you rather I have used? But again, that's largely beside the point, when is a generalization a strong and logical form of argumentation? That was my whole point, and I've yet to see a reason that says other wise, either from you or all the writings on argumentation I've read over the years.
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Post by the4thpip on Nov 12, 2015 14:35:33 GMT -5
I am with Hoosier here.
Let me be more precise: There certainly are thoughtful, moderate conservatives. But if they have any kind of conscience, they are no longer associated with the Republican party. I mean, the front runner in the presidential elections is calling for a return of Operation Wetback and laughs it off when his supporters beat up immigrants in his name. In my country, Trump would be considered a Neo Nazi and would be likely to already be facing criminal charges of Volksverhetzung (incitement of racially motivated violence). And he is not an exceptions, he is the condensation of what has become of the GOP in the past 30 or so years.
It's not a party that any good person should remain a member of. It takes a whole lot of white, straight, male privilege to ignore that. And for the life of me, I cannot figure out black Republicans like Carson or the few remaining gay Republicans, like Larry Craig.
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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 12, 2015 14:44:45 GMT -5
I can recommend a thoughtful, sensible conservative. His name is Chris Ladd, and his is one of the few political blogs I follow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2015 14:55:05 GMT -5
Purely a "colorful Americanism," I'll have you know ... per the executive editor of my aforementioned old newspaper in Little Rock. He also let us know that racism & neo-Nazis didn't exist & that men couldn't be raped. And that executions of prisoners were to be restricted to page 3B treatment because they're merely a standard outcome of the judicial process. He fancied himself a libertarian. Which he might have been; I have no idea. What he wasn't was a journalist. He was, however, a lawyer, whose main qualification for the editorship was, I gather, brokering the adoptions of the children the publisher bought for himself. *sigh* Since prisoner executions tended to happen on my watch as night city editor, looking back I really have no idea why I didn't snap & go on a killing rampage at some point. After Arkansas carried out the nation's first triple execution in something like 50 years, I wound up giving a phone interview to some radio station in Australia. Back home, of course, it was a small 3B headline as usual.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 15:24:50 GMT -5
I can recommend a thoughtful, sensible conservative. His name is Chris Ladd, and his is one of the few political blogs I follow. Thank you, Rob Allen. It's nice to know there's one. I'm curious ... has he ever weighed in on "the liberal media" or all the treason accusations in the post-Sept. 11 world? I really am curious. I browsed his blog and found so many of his positions to be the exact opposite of current conservative dogma that I bet none of the GOP candidates for president would consider him a conservative.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 15:33:07 GMT -5
If I'm terribly mischaracterizing your views which words would you rather I have used? Um, I wish you had responded to what I had said about the lack of critical thinking skills among conservatives rather than mischaracterizing what I said by acting like I called them crazy or terrible. Questioning someone's lack of critical thinking skills is not the same as calling them crazy or terrible.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 15:40:52 GMT -5
Let's break it down this way, if you take all the hateful pundits, all the totally hawkish conservative lawmakers, the people you worked with on that newspaper and anyone you've conversed with online you get what, maybe a 600 people? Let's be really generous and say your sample size is 2,000 people. I must just be very unlucky in that I have never run into one of these sensible, thoughtful conservatives that are working their butts off to get some sane people into office and into the conservative media chairs. Uh, that might be why I said "most" in my original post, changed it to "many," rewrote my original statement into a purely factual one about my own experiences and conceded that there might be some sensible, thoughtful conservatives in the post to which you are responding.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 15:43:47 GMT -5
So has anybody been watching the debates? I've seen all four GOP debates. Maybe that's why I've been a little dubious about ... you know. Sorry.
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Post by Hoosier X on Nov 12, 2015 15:55:19 GMT -5
GOP Confab Ends with Call to Execute Gays Who Don't RepentAnybody else impressed by Swanson's restraint? I would love to see a meaningful number of sensible, thoughtful conservatives outraged about the candidates who attended this event.
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Post by Rob Allen on Nov 12, 2015 16:52:57 GMT -5
I can recommend a thoughtful, sensible conservative. His name is Chris Ladd, and his is one of the few political blogs I follow. Thank you, Rob Allen. It's nice to know there's one. I'm curious ... has he ever weighed in on "the liberal media" or all the treason accusations in the post-Sept. 11 world? I searched the blog and did not find any discussion of the "liberal media" myth or the treason accusations. We might try emailing him to ask him to comment. Yes, his conservatism is not the same as what we're seeing in national politics these days.
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Post by dupersuper on Nov 12, 2015 20:25:11 GMT -5
And attacking me for forming my opinions based on my experience isn't doing a whole lot to convince me I'm wrong. You judged an entire group of people (or at least "most" of them). You seem to be implying judging people in a political party is the same thing as judging them on some racial or such grounds. There's a difference between bigotry and judging people for the beliefs of a group they voluntarily join...
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Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 12, 2015 20:42:39 GMT -5
So has anybody been watching the debates? I've seen all four GOP debates. Maybe that's why I've been a little dubious about ... you know. Sorry. I watched the most of the first, and a bit of the second.. they were such a circle jerk I couldn't stomach it. I thought the MSNBC (or was it CNBC?) one might be better (since they both have an actual liberal bias), but that was just a snark fest. I've found it pretty useful to read the fact checking and Politico analysis, though. I think if I had to pick one, I think it'd be Rubio, but it's a bit choosing between 90s Image comics.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 12, 2015 21:34:44 GMT -5
So has anybody been watching the debates? I've seen all four GOP debates. Maybe that's why I've been a little dubious about ... you know. Sorry. I watched the most of the first, and a bit of the second.. they were such a circle jerk I couldn't stomach it. I thought the MSNBC (or was it CNBC?) one might be better (since they both have an actual liberal bias), but that was just a snark fest. I've found it pretty useful to read the fact checking and Politico analysis, though. I think if I had to pick one, I think it'd be Rubio, but it's a bit choosing between 90s Image comics. Are you saying Rubio is the 1963 of Republican candidates?
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