|
Post by Warmonger on Nov 3, 2016 19:37:21 GMT -5
I don't see what's inherently racist about supporting a wall along the southern border. You want to be a U.S. Citizen? Great, grand, wonderful...then go through the proper channels to become a U.S. citizen. The legal way. The just way. The right way. But allowing hundreds of thousands of illegals every year to simply hop a fence and waltz in here, tax free? Nah, that shits for the birds. Can't support it. A guy who wants a wall to keep out a whole group of people because he thinks they're all rapists and drug smugglers? That's what's inherently racist about it. All of them? Of course not But there's no denying there's plenty of drug smugglers and violent offenders making their trek across the border daily. How do you suppose we help combat this problem if we aren't going to build a wall? Hire an additional 20,000+ border patrol agents? Do nothing and simply "hope" that the problem magically disappears?
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 3, 2016 19:39:57 GMT -5
You can leave aside whether Trump's wall is racist. The idea is laughably impractical and as with every one of his "policies" has all the planning of something put together by a not-so-bright Junior High student. His estimates of cost are at least 2/3 to low. His assertion that Mexico is going to pay for it is ridiculous. It would be an environmental and economic disaster. And it will be ineffective.
30 - 40 percent of illegal aliens entered legally, but overstayed their visas. Wall doesn't touch any of them. And it won't stop anyone determined to cross the border. It's really not hard at all to get over a 1900 mile wall.
|
|
|
Post by DE Sinclair on Nov 3, 2016 19:51:37 GMT -5
A guy who wants a wall to keep out a whole group of people because he thinks they're all rapists and drug smugglers? That's what's inherently racist about it. All of them? Of course not But there's no denying there's plenty of drug smugglers and violent offenders making their trek across the border daily. How do you suppose we help combat this problem if we aren't going to build a wall? Hire an additional 20,000+ border patrol agents? Do nothing and simply "hope" that the problem magically disappears? Well, we could start with the fact that the number of illegal immigrants crossing the boarder is greatly overstated? Studies have shown that the numbers have dropped significantly in recent years. Next we could address the fact that of those coming into the country, the vast, overwhelming majority are good people looking for better opportunities that people like Trump are damning because of the tiny, miniscule number of actual criminals that sneak in. After that we could look at the studies by experts that say that even if the multi-billion dollar wall were built, it wouldn't be significantly more effective than the existing fences. And regardless of what Trump says, Mexico is never, ever going to pay for it.
The wall is a 12th century solution to a 21st century problem. And a problem that has been vastly overstated. Modern surveillance tech could do the job better and cheaper.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 3, 2016 20:15:14 GMT -5
From where I see it, next year we'll either have a war against illegal immigration or a war against the F.B.I.
|
|
|
Post by wildfire2099 on Nov 3, 2016 20:29:59 GMT -5
I don't see what's inherently racist about supporting a wall along the southern border. You want to be a U.S. Citizen? Great, grand, wonderful...then go through the proper channels to become a U.S. citizen. The legal way. The just way. The right way. But allowing hundreds of thousands of illegals every year to simply hop a fence and waltz in here, tax free? Nah, that shits for the birds. Can't support it. Here's the thing.. there are not hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants coming through the borders. The border patrol assumes about 2/3 of the people that try to get in do.. but yet they estimate only 11 million illegal immigrants in the country... with somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 being those than entered legally and overstayed their visa. Those numbers just don't add up. Since it's alot less difficult to count the people that are here, I'd suggest that the border patrol is overestimating how many people they miss (which, obviously that have a vested interest in doing) Stop the work visas you say? Fine. Who's going to do all the grunt work those people provide... work I can tell you your average Trump supporter has no interest doing (seasonal tourist stuff, farming, short term construction, etc). As for it preventing any sort of criminals, why won't they just take a boat to Florida? Or go through Canada? What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 3, 2016 21:05:53 GMT -5
What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem. Gee, I guess 9/11 was not recent enough? And murder is not a big problem since there's less of that than natural and accidental deaths. You need to re-think your position about murder
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 3, 2016 21:14:38 GMT -5
What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem. Gee, I guess 9/11 was not recent enough? And murder is not a big problem since there's less of that than natural and accidental deaths. You need to re-think your position about murder Exactly zero of the 9/11 hijackers entered the U.S. illegally. As far as I can find, exactly zero terrorist attacks have been perpetrated in the U.S. by illegal aliens. And yeah...9/11 was not that recent. It's been 15 years. New voters have no memory of 9/11. Murders and violent crimes in general have steadily declined since the mid-70s. There has been an uptick recently, but overall the trend still continues downward.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 3, 2016 23:55:43 GMT -5
Gee, I guess 9/11 was not recent enough? And murder is not a big problem since there's less of that than natural and accidental deaths. You need to re-think your position about murder Exactly zero of the 9/11 hijackers entered the U.S. illegally. As far as I can find, exactly zero terrorist attacks have been perpetrated in the U.S. by illegal aliens. And yeah...9/11 was not that recent. It's been 15 years. New voters have no memory of 9/11. Murders and violent crimes in general have steadily declined since the mid-70s. There has been an uptick recently, but overall the trend still continues downward. The 9/11 killers were foreign born jihadists who arrived, obviously, before this country implemented stricter screenings as well as other precautions including provisions with the Patriot Acts. Since then, in the U.S. there have been several attempts of terrorism such as the planned bombing in Times Square that thankfully were foiled. Tactics have changed since then. It is much easier to recruit and train natural-born malcontents then smuggle terrorists inside the States. The battle is the same, only the tactics have changed. And one only need to see what has occurred on many occasions in Europe to know this is not an insignificant problem. Maybe it's because I live in New York City, one of the prime targets, that I have a greater awareness of what might occur if we think there is no threat And Slam, come on, crime and murder rates rose from the 60s until the mid-90s, then spiraled down only to begin to grow again the last few years. But who was talking about violent crime rates over the past few decades? I was responding to an assertion that since murder happens less than natural and accidental deaths, it's not a big deal. I don't think defense attorney use that argument in court
|
|
|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 4, 2016 0:37:46 GMT -5
You're right. I was wrong about the violent crime numbers. They have however declined consistently since 1992 until there was an uptick in 2015.
And maybe you are more sensitive. But the point is, that building a boon-doggle of a wall isn't going to do jack-shit to stop terrorism, because there is zero instances of terrorism coming about because of illegal immigration.
The main result of 9/11 is that most Americans act like terrified children jumping at shadows and willingly giving up American rights and freedoms, instead of being the land of the free and the home of the brave. All of which leads to a fascist being the nominee of the Republican Party for President.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 4, 2016 1:15:25 GMT -5
You're right. I was wrong about the violent crime numbers. They have however declined consistently since 1992 until there was an uptick in 2015. And maybe you are more sensitive. But the point is, that building a boon-doggle of a wall isn't going to do jack-shit to stop terrorism, because there is zero instances of terrorism coming about because of illegal immigration. The main result of 9/11 is that most Americans act like terrified children jumping at shadows and willingly giving up American rights and freedoms, instead of being the land of the free and the home of the brave. All of which leads to a fascist being the nominee of the Republican Party for President. Well, I'll tell you, that wall has nothing to do with combating terrorism and I never equated the two. The way Trump describes it is utterly ridiculous. If you really want to cut down illegal immigration, you come down hard on the people/ corporations that hire them. But yes, living in NYC gives one a different perspective on the terrorist issue. When a massacre occurs in Europe for example, NYC automatically goes into high alert and you see a heavier presence of police and armed forces brandishing automatic weapons at all the major high density areas like shopping malls and tourist areas. There have been signs plastered everywhere for 15 years about "If you see something, say something". Knowing that this would be ground zero for any group that wants to make a political statement, or any home grown nutjob that gets indoctrinated into the jihadist cause, certainly causes my sensitivity.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 4, 2016 1:43:11 GMT -5
Here's a link with all the crime data you'll ever need for the U.S. from 1960 to 2015. But again,this wasn't the subject I was speaking about in the first place. But since the subject was brought up, I do believe in the theory I read in the first Freakonomics book that tied in the crime drop that began in the 1990s to legalized abortion in the 1970s.
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,173
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 4, 2016 5:06:06 GMT -5
What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem. Don't forget the second amendment, responsible for fifteen thousand violent deaths every year, plus a comparable number of suicides and accidental deaths. ISIS must drool when thinking of such numbers.
|
|
|
Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 4, 2016 12:31:57 GMT -5
What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem. Don't forget the second amendment, responsible for fifteen thousand violent deaths every year, plus a comparable number of suicides and accidental deaths. ISIS must drool when thinking of such numbers. Applying this equilivancy: Kim Jong Un is a much more despicable political leader and yet he's never mentioned in this thread. Donald Trump must drool over his deeds. Maybe what Trump says is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem
|
|
Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,173
Member is Online
|
Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 4, 2016 13:31:08 GMT -5
Don't forget the second amendment, responsible for fifteen thousand violent deaths every year, plus a comparable number of suicides and accidental deaths. ISIS must drool when thinking of such numbers. Applying this equilivancy: Kim Jong Un is a much more despicable political leader and yet he's never mentioned in this thread. Donald Trump must drool over his deeds. Maybe what Trump says is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem If I get your meaning right (which I might not), I agree : Kim Jong Un is not a major security issue for the US, and what Trump does say is a major security issue (mainly Iran getting nukes, say) isn't either. There are security issues in the US, as everywhere else, but they're not the point Trump stresses: all he keeps yapping about are issues that get him enthusiastic ovations but that are this close to being downright trivial. His solutions to these "problems" also involve, all too often, discriminating against people who are the wrong colour, speak the wrong language or practice the wrong religion. He's a populist, nothing more. He has no plan about anything. He just wants to get in the white house, shout "you're fired" at whoever displeases him, and believes that the strength of his obnoxious personality will be enough to get the world to fall in line.
|
|
|
Post by The Captain on Nov 4, 2016 13:32:16 GMT -5
What about the terrorists? The fact is the every all the recent terrorist attacks committed by Radical Muslims were people born in the United States. It's also a fact that Terrorism as a source of death is a very very minor item in the scheme of things. How about Cancer? Alzheimers? DUI? Just because something is sad and gets alot of headlines doesn't mean it's a big problem. Don't forget the second amendment, responsible for fifteen thousand violent deaths every year, plus a comparable number of suicides and accidental deaths. ISIS must drool when thinking of such numbers. Yeah, no. I'm not a gun guy (never fired one, never held one, have no interest in owning one), so I'm not here rah-rahing the NRA and the Second Amendment, but this isn't even close to being right. Most of those violent deaths you reference are not the result of the actions of law-abiding citizens who legally own their guns, whose right to own them legally is guaranteed by that amendment, but rather by individuals whose guns are acquired through theft or purchased through illegal means on the blavk market. Getting rid of the Second Amendment will do nothing to stem the tide of criminal acquisitions of firearms and the deaths caused by those who don't follow the laws of the land anyway, so to attribute all or even the majority of those violent deaths to the existence of that amendment is disingenuous.
|
|