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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 10:34:36 GMT -5
But, Prince Hal, think of the gains made by the p***y-grabbing, tax-dodging, disability-mocking, racist, xenophobic, hero-mocking demographic! That's got to count for something! Not that everyone who voted for Trump is one of things (he said with his moderator's hat on). But they voted for those vile sentiments' very embodiment, as RR indicates. Hmmm ... I can't quite remember how the old saying goes. Something about actions speaking louder than words, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 10:35:49 GMT -5
Hey, maybe at least he'll make the trains run on time. Apparently that was a problem with the metro system in D.C. this morning.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 10:38:03 GMT -5
But, Prince Hal, think of the gains made by the p***y-grabbing, tax-dodging, disability-mocking, racist, xenophobic, hero-mocking demographic! That's got to count for something! And this is one of the reasons that Trump won. Because the progressive liberal side made this an election between "decent folks" (those who agree with them) and folks like those you described, without ever thinking those people might have reasons to vote, either for Trump or against Hillary, that didn't spawn from those people being "deplorables" I was actually referring to the candidate, Captain, but if we must address those who voted for him... their reasons are their own and it's not my place to judge them. I am convinced that if I heard those reasons, I would disagree with most of them, would more-or-less agree with some, and might even fully agree with a small number. However, whatever those reasons, the candidate himself was all the things I wrote above, and was absolutely not the answer to whatever grievances people had. People like Trump are not a solution. They never were, they never will. They blatantly insult minorities (as well as women, who aren't a minority!), they spread fear, they posit themselves as defenders of the little poeple while they are crass exploiters, and in the end of the day they're holding the money bag and laughing at all of us. Voting for him, whatever the intention, was a mistake.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 9, 2016 10:48:10 GMT -5
I weep for this country; not because it appears to have elected Trump (though that is sad enough), but, because so few participate in the process that these were the best candidates we could get. I have a co-worker who is nearly 30 and has never voted. I didn't get to vote in 1984 because I didn't turn 18 until the week after the election. I had to wait until 1988. I have never missed an election. In serving in the military, it was my only real means of expressing my feelings about the missions we were ordered to undertake. The Gulf War was a major political awakening for me. I've always been socially liberal, and probably a bit more conservative on defense, then. However, being in the military, and at a command staff, gave me access to a lot of info that made me seriously question what was coming out of Washington. I didn't like the way things were carried out and a lot of other things that occurred during my time of duty. I made my voice known in the next election. And continued to do so, even as I spent more time voting against than for. No matter the outcome, I still vote; because the forces that want to manipulate this country for their narrow benefit depend on voter malaise. The more people vote, the better the candidates and the more the parties work together to find a consensus and bring compromise, which is the foundation of large scale government. We will survive, no matter who is president and their power is not absolute. No matter the rhetoric of the campaign trail, legislation is a different reality. There is no clear mandate here. Compromise is still a necessity to get any program through and Trump's wild statements will not survive Congress, even with a Republican majority. America has survived dark times and will again; but, it will weather them better by getting involved, not running for cover. I said a while ago I really don't have an incentive to vote and never have. I'm 29 and I voted once back in 2008, and really I can't recall that action alone having impacted my life for the better or worse. My fortunes didn't change overnight and everything regarding my world stayed relatively the same. Everyone's experience is going to be different, but for me the entire process has always been bogus. It never felt like voting actually mattered. At least to me. Call me a conspirator, but how do you know that the entire spectacle isn't one big sham and always has been? I'll say front and center that I'm not educated enough to know the entire system front to back and how it's supposed to work. But I think that's part of the issue why people don't participate. They don't see a brighter future ahead/aren't involved in politics or don't see how the outcome of an election will impact their lives either way like in the past/or a voting process that should be so simple for anyone to partake it in further complicated by things like electoral college, a caucus, or delegates. Whatever happened to just writing who we want to vote for on a piece of paper and turning it in, and that being it? One vote per person without all of these extra transactions before it actually "counts". I think it's more a reflection of the failures of a voting system as to why a lot of people don't take the time to vote. Personally I don't think the country deserves my vote. So I don't vote. But then again I'm a cynic and have been for a while. We don't have rights in this country, only privileges that can be taken away by a higher power whenever it deems necessary. Might = right. As long as you have the bigger gun things are going to go your way. Just because you have ideas on a 200 year old piece of paper doesn't mean you are magically compelled to follow it. Obligated sure, but that isn't much a guarantee. Which is why we always have a two head race between two parties, innocent people go to jail, government cover ups happen, and all in all folks are just wasting their time. I don't live in America anymore and I'm not sure if I'll go back. Sadly, I'm going to continue to keep my head down, look out for myself, and worry about getting mine. But that is what the USA has taught me. No, I agree with much of your sentiment; but, I think there is a big caveat here. We barely manage 50% voter turnout in this country; some of the worst in the free world. We got higher voter turnout this year; but, I haven't seen any number that suggest we did even 2/3. And, with that, it wasn't exactly a mandate for anyone. Participation in the primaries is ridiculously low, which is how we end up with final candidates that even their own parties don't like and undercut. There is a big reason for that, as the primary process is an even more muddled mess than the final national election. In Illinois, you have to declare a party and vote for a candidate, and a large number of states have similar systems. I like the idea that California has experimented with, where the vote is for your top 3 choices, in an effort to avoid a costly run-off election. They found that candidates had to speak to a broader audience and tended to be more civil and focused on actual issues. I'd like to see something like that on a national scale; but, allowing the voter to choose among all parties. I also think campaign finance reform is imperative; but, all but impossible. Reform has to be carried out by the very people who benefitted from the system. Once the Supreme Court ruled that spending limits were unconstitutional, are bets were off. The 1% got one of theirs in control, while the average income in congress is ridiculously high. I also think term limits need to be imposed on Congress. If the president can be limited to two terms or ten years, then I think it should apply to them, too. Two terms for a Senator, or a maximum of 14 years and maybe 4 terms or ten years as a representative sounds fair. Really, i think a decade is more than long enough for any politician to be in a specific office. In the end though, the cynicism that drives people away from voting falls right into the hands of the people who manipulate the system, the same as it does when workers are to scared to challenge management in bad working environments. Those in power use fear to keep people from acting in their best interests and it is in taking a stand and building coalitions that you fight those forces and create positive change. Instead, people get caught up in petty squabbles and ignorant fear. It's a long time since we had a leader who said "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Fear drives way too much of our political and social discourse.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2016 10:59:18 GMT -5
I weep for this country; not because it appears to have elected Trump (though that is sad enough), but, because so few participate in the process that these were the best candidates we could get. I have a co-worker who is nearly 30 and has never voted. I didn't get to vote in 1984 because I didn't turn 18 until the week after the election. I had to wait until 1988. I have never missed an election. In serving in the military, it was my only real means of expressing my feelings about the missions we were ordered to undertake. The Gulf War was a major political awakening for me. I've always been socially liberal, and probably a bit more conservative on defense, then. However, being in the military, and at a command staff, gave me access to a lot of info that made me seriously question what was coming out of Washington. I didn't like the way things were carried out and a lot of other things that occurred during my time of duty. I made my voice known in the next election. And continued to do so, even as I spent more time voting against than for. No matter the outcome, I still vote; because the forces that want to manipulate this country for their narrow benefit depend on voter malaise. The more people vote, the better the candidates and the more the parties work together to find a consensus and bring compromise, which is the foundation of large scale government. We will survive, no matter who is president and their power is not absolute. No matter the rhetoric of the campaign trail, legislation is a different reality. There is no clear mandate here. Compromise is still a necessity to get any program through and Trump's wild statements will not survive Congress, even with a Republican majority. America has survived dark times and will again; but, it will weather them better by getting involved, not running for cover. I said a while ago I really don't have an incentive to vote and never have. I'm 29 and I voted once back in 2008, and really I can't recall that action alone having impacted my life for the better or worse. My fortunes didn't change overnight and everything regarding my world stayed relatively the same. Everyone's experience is going to be different, but for me the entire process has always been bogus. It never felt like voting actually mattered. At least to me. Call me a conspirator, but how do you know that the entire spectacle isn't one big sham and always has been? I'll say front and center that I'm not educated enough to know the entire system front to back and how it's supposed to work. But I think that's part of the issue why people don't participate. They don't see a brighter future ahead/aren't involved in politics or don't see how the outcome of an election will impact their lives either way like in the past/or a voting process that should be so simple for anyone to partake it in further complicated by things like electoral college, a caucus, or delegates. Whatever happened to just writing who we want to vote for on a piece of paper and turning it in, and that being it? One vote per person without all of these extra transactions before it actually "counts". I think it's more a reflection of the failures of a voting system as to why a lot of people don't take the time to vote. Personally I don't think the country deserves my vote. So I don't vote. But then again I'm a cynic and have been for a while. We don't have rights in this country, only privileges that can be taken away by a higher power whenever it deems necessary. Might = right. As long as you have the bigger gun things are going to go your way. Just because you have ideas on a 200 year old piece of paper doesn't mean you are magically compelled to follow it. Obligated sure, but that isn't much a guarantee. Which is why we always have a two head race between two parties, innocent people go to jail, government cover ups happen, and all in all folks are just wasting their time. I don't live in America anymore and I'm not sure if I'll go back. Sadly, I'm going to continue to keep my head down, look out for myself, and worry about getting mine. But that is what the USA has taught me. I voted in 1980, 1992, 1996 & 2000. That's it. Maybe I will again someday, though obviously the older I get the less likely that is. And I was under no illusion that going to the polls those years made a dime's worth of difference in the outcomes, because I'm (a) not an Electoral College voter or (b) a multimillionaire who can purchase politicians at a whim. Those are the only votes that count, sad to say. Typing off the top of my head, I'm going to say that a system in which a Trump can win a major party's nomination, much less the Electoral College, is a system broken beyond any hope of repair. It was true 100 years ago, & it's true now, with the difference being that Trump's innate loathsomeness makes the contrary argument even harder to make or for that matter stomach. Liberals & their ilk, very good friends of mine here & elsewhere included, will wring their hands & bleat platitudes about how this abominable outcome somehow shows that the system works ... but it doesn't. It. Does. Not. Under the best circumstances, an election is about as meaningful as the World Series or the Super Bowl when it comes to actual impact on lives & policy, insofar as (like this time) either way Wall Street was going to win. Under the worst circumstances ... well, I suppose there's a good chance we'll be finding that out in the months to come.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Nov 9, 2016 11:01:29 GMT -5
All that being said, if Trump can behave like a human being and work to meet the interests of both his party and his detractors, I will do my best to keep an open mind and give him a chance. I don't think this is Hitler's second coming. That's sheer hyperbole. I don't say much about politics, and I probably won't say much on the results, but this. And I do not mean to dissect and dismiss your other points shax, that's not my intention, it's just this is the only point I feel qualified to comment on. This is the only thing that doesn't have me worried that there is some impending doom on the US at this point. I don't think Trump is going to bring about any big threat to the US. Will the next four years be shit with his decisions/policies? That's to be seen. And fair to give him a chance to go either way. But I don't feel any certain fear over a WW3 or nuclear war than I would/have with any other president. Well I disagree there. I don't think Trump is going to round up people and put them in death camps, but I absolutely worry about his ability to keep his temper and think before he speaks with foreign nations and especially when he has the nuclear codes. I'm hoping like Hell that Trump's rage up until now has been a performance. It it wasn't, I think there's very good reason to be afraid.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 9, 2016 11:04:22 GMT -5
Not that everyone who voted for Trump is one of things (he said with his moderator's hat on). But they voted for those vile sentiments' very embodiment, as RR indicates. Hmmm ... I can't quite remember how the old saying goes. Something about actions speaking louder than words, maybe? That's so, but you have to assume that most Trump supporters thought that they were doing the right thing by their country and their nearest & dearest. Misguided though many of us think that is. It's also wholly possible that some, maybe most, voted for him based on his finacial and business acumen --or perceived business acumen -- in order to get their country's economy back on its feet. It's too easy to simply paint all Trump voters as xenophobic racists and misogynists, though some undoubtedly are those very things. Jeez, I'm sounding like a Trump apologist here. I'm not...I'm as disappointed and disbelieving as anyone else, but the reasons for Trump's victory are many and complex. Let's not forget that not only did Trump win, but Clinton also very visibly lost. Some of the blame for this result -- if blame is to be apportioned -- lays at her door and her failure to engage and unite the electorate. I'm reading things this morning in the UK press about how her weak message on the economy and the issues people had about trusting her as being the root of her downfall.
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Post by Lolatadatodo on Nov 9, 2016 11:14:13 GMT -5
No, we get it, Confessor. We do. Thank you. It is perspective we all could use right now.♡
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 9, 2016 11:15:13 GMT -5
I don't say much about politics, and I probably won't say much on the results, but this. And I do not mean to dissect and dismiss your other points shax, that's not my intention, it's just this is the only point I feel qualified to comment on. This is the only thing that doesn't have me worried that there is some impending doom on the US at this point. I don't think Trump is going to bring about any big threat to the US. Will the next four years be shit with his decisions/policies? That's to be seen. And fair to give him a chance to go either way. But I don't feel any certain fear over a WW3 or nuclear war than I would/have with any other president. Well I disagree there. I don't think Trump is going to round up people and put them in death camps, but I absolutely worry about his ability to keep his temper and think before he speaks with foreign nations and especially when he has the nuclear codes. I'm hoping like Hell that Trump's rage up until now has been a performance. It it wasn't, I think there's very good reason to be afraid.This too is what I think (and hope) is the case. Unfortunately now that he's elected, all we can do is wait and see if that's the case.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on Nov 9, 2016 11:23:57 GMT -5
Well I disagree there. I don't think Trump is going to round up people and put them in death camps, but I absolutely worry about his ability to keep his temper and think before he speaks with foreign nations and especially when he has the nuclear codes. I'm hoping like Hell that Trump's rage up until now has been a performance. It it wasn't, I think there's very good reason to be afraid.This too is what I think (and hope) is the case. Unfortunately now that he's elected, all we can do is wait and see if that's the case. I don't remember all the details (and can't be bothered to Google for them), but didn't some Filipino politician recently call Barack Obama the "son of whore" or something close to that? I'm not sure I'd want to see Trump's response to a similar comment made by a world leader. The prospect of what he might do in retaliation is very scary.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 9, 2016 11:41:35 GMT -5
I think all along many of us thought/hoped that the rage was a shtick. That may well have been, but I'm not holding out much hope that there's going to be a Thomas a Beckett or Prince Hal/Henry V transformation brought on by some inner sense of nobility, principle or duty.
He is a con man who has suckered in everyone who voted for him.
Would love to be wrong, but I've been around too long and seen the ravages of the Wallaces, Nixons, and Bushes.
To paraphrase Gerald Ford, our long national nightmare has begun.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 9, 2016 12:00:30 GMT -5
HRC's concession speech was a class act start to finish.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 12:06:33 GMT -5
I don't say much about politics, and I probably won't say much on the results, but this. And I do not mean to dissect and dismiss your other points shax, that's not my intention, it's just this is the only point I feel qualified to comment on. This is the only thing that doesn't have me worried that there is some impending doom on the US at this point. I don't think Trump is going to bring about any big threat to the US. Will the next four years be shit with his decisions/policies? That's to be seen. And fair to give him a chance to go either way. But I don't feel any certain fear over a WW3 or nuclear war than I would/have with any other president. Well I disagree there. I don't think Trump is going to round up people and put them in death camps, but I absolutely worry about his ability to keep his temper and think before he speaks with foreign nations and especially when he has the nuclear codes. I'm hoping like Hell that Trump's rage up until now has been a performance. It it wasn't, I think there's very good reason to be afraid. The doom I see in the future has less to do with nuclear war than with ecological and social devastation. Trump will probably surround himself with people having some experience in international negotiations, so I suppose he won't be able to apply his simplistic solutions to complex problems. He will, however, find it much more easier to do things like facilitate coal and gas extraction. This will be very popular with his electorate, as it will give miners jobs and boost the economy of mining regions. The ones who will ultimately pay the price will be the next few generations (and today's residents of Louisiana and Florida), dealing with increasing sea levels, more severe storms and and less less drinking water. For all his populist talk, Trump will not see to it that wealth is better distributed. The richest will grow even richer, the poorest will grow even poorer, and it is in this inequality that I see the single greatest threat to the American way of life. Increased inequality will unfortunately lead to increased crime, and no number of new policemen will be able to maintain social peace.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 9, 2016 12:11:22 GMT -5
I always felt, and still believe quite a bit, that Trump's candidacy was more motivated by filling his coffers with campaign money, without ever seriously seeking office. Like his book and his show, it was a big con. His campaign never presented someone who seriously wanted office. I think he pranked himself into something way bigger than he imagined and suspect the reality is going to hit him very soon, much as it did W, though hopefully, not in the same manner.
On the other hand, the nuclear codes thing is more fear mongering. Even Trump isn't that stupid, and, i think those fears underestimate the men and women of the military. Having served, I know people will follow bad orders. However, we have massive respect for what a nuke can do. People had similar fears with Reagan but they were never close to coming true and it was probably a more grounded fear than this. The military will challenge an extreme nuclear response to a situation, before they will launch. It's not an automatic thing; it's a communication system. All nuclear orders go through an authentication process. Any decision to use nukes has to get past the Cabinet, the Pentagon, and the people who would do the actual firing.
I'd be more worried about economic decisions made for short term reasons that are long term disasters, like tax breaks for the wealthy and continued privatization of public services and resources, not to mention wrong-headed environmental decisions.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 9, 2016 12:20:44 GMT -5
I think all along many of us thought/hoped that the rage was a shtick. That may well have been, but I'm not holding out much hope that there's going to be a Thomas a Beckett or Prince Hal/Henry V transformation brought on by some inner sense of nobility, principle or duty. He is a con man who has suckered in everyone who voted for him. Would love to be wrong, but I've been around too long and seen the ravages of the Wallaces, Nixons, and Bushes. To paraphrase Gerald Ford, our long national nightmare has begun.Due to being too young to have experienced his presidency, at the mention of his name, I always wondered if Mr Ford was just like the Simpsons depicted. Plus we could all use some comic relief. :-)
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