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Post by Slam_Bradley on Nov 9, 2016 13:37:57 GMT -5
I'm looking for silver linings and there aren't many. But on the plus side Joe Apraio is finally gone.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 9, 2016 13:40:02 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing too cody. It's a treat from hearing about politics in a history book. And you and Hal's first hand accounts are what make us youngins (well I don't feel young) appreciate how the system can work for the people despite it's flaws or the villains that might get into office.
Was Nixon from his campaign suspected to be the crook he turned out to be? Policies aside, Trump has said a lot that seems counterproductive to appealing to the people of American rather than to a select group. So I can see why people are discouraged before he even officially takes office.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 9, 2016 13:42:34 GMT -5
Am I really the only one here that recalls what caused President Ford's defeat? His blanket pardon of Richard Nixon for any crimes he might have committed, even ones that might still be undiscovered. There was a firestorm among Liberals and others about that. Or his clueless handling of the economy where the only thing people recalled him doing was issue buttons for people to wear called WIP-Whip Inflation Now.His demeanor was a welcomed contrast as opposed to what the country experienced with Nixon but it was no surprise that Carter defeated him
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 9, 2016 13:56:34 GMT -5
Am I really the only one here that recalls what caused President Ford's defeat? His blanket pardon of Richard Nixon for any crimes he might have committed, even ones that might still be undiscovered. There was a firestorm among Liberals and others about that. Or his clueless handling of the economy where the only thing people recalled him doing was issue buttons for people to wear called WIP-Whip Inflation Now.His demeanor was a welcomed contrast as opposed to what the country experienced with Nixon but it was no surprise that Carter defeated him No, of course not. His pardon of Nixon did hurt him, though many think in retrospect that it was the best thing he could have done for the good of the country. A far cry from Trump's promise to jail Hillary Clinton after the election. His foreign policy was still simply the machinations of Kissinger, who stayed on to wreak havoc in Indochina, the remark about Poland's being a free nation, the infamous WIN buttons and swine flu scare were other lowlights. He may have been a good example of the Peter Principle in action. His wife may have been the best part of his term in office. She was somewhat outspoken, an advocate of women's rights, birth control and abortion, fought against alcoholism and in general was what a moderate Republican woman used to be back when someone like the spineless, unctuous, sanctimnious Paul Ryan, America's bestest little boy, would have been considered a far-right extremist.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on Nov 9, 2016 13:56:57 GMT -5
Am I really the only one here that recalls what caused President Ford's defeat? His blanket pardon of Richard Nixon for any crimes he might have committed, even ones that might still be undiscovered. There was a firestorm among Liberals and others about that. Or his clueless handling of the economy where the only thing people recalled him doing was issue buttons for people to wear called WIP-Whip Inflation Now.His demeanor was a welcomed contrast as opposed to what the country experienced with Nixon but it was no surprise that Carter defeated him Did he has a choice in pardoning Nixon? When I do hear things from other's first hand, that always seems to be what people say. As in they invalidate his time in office based on that pardon. I have not heard the other things you mentioned. So thank you for your input too Ish.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 14:08:36 GMT -5
His foreign policy was still simply the machinations of Kissinger, who stayed on to wreak havoc in Indochina, the remark about Poland's being a free nation, the infamous WIN buttons and swine flu scare were other lowlights. Kissinger is a fascinating individual; he's like a character in a novel. Moriarty-like. He caused so much, so much pain in Southeast Asia while also getting the Nobel peace prize for it that it boggles the mind. As for the swine flu scare, it did give us this great line from Fly on the wall : "People said pigs couldn't fly and then swine flu".Man, I miss Fly!
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Nov 9, 2016 14:12:21 GMT -5
Besides stumbling down the stairs, the other incidents that branded Ford clumsy and a bumbler was his love of playing golf and a few instances where he hit bystanders in the head with his shots. More than once
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 14:14:11 GMT -5
Besides stumbling down the stairs, the other incidents that branded Ford clumsy and a bumbler was his love of playing golf and a few instances where he hit bystanders in the head with his shots. More than once Dick Cheney had to do better, of course. Ah, the competition.
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Post by Confessor on Nov 9, 2016 14:19:23 GMT -5
Where've you been? ISIS thrives on an enemy who falls into the trap of paying them constant public notice. Great PR for them. And Putin? Well, there's all that money Trump has tied up with Russian interests. Plus Trump has had an authoritarian boner for him since te day before forever. Putin is Hannibal Lecter waiting to have Trump over for dinner... with a few fava beans. But never fear: Rudy Giuliani, Chris Christie, General Flynn and Kelly Anne Conway will be there to save the day. Nothing like having good people around you. I'm afraid I've never heard of any of those four people, so I wouldn't know. But the Russian thing just sounds like paranoia to me. Giuliani you'd most likely remember from being Mayor of New York City at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He was widely regarded as a hero back then, and certainly America's most looked-up-to mayor. Since then, he's sullied the goodwill that bought him -- at least, in the eyes of the left (and me, incidentally) -- by going bat-s**t, right-wing crazy -- suggesting that Barack Obama doesn't love America and that the biggest danger to an African America isn't from white police, but from other African Americans. I have no idea who the other three people Prince Hal mentioned are either though. Not sure the Putin thing really is paranoia. You can't fail to have noticed that we've been on the brink of a new cold war for a while now. Even discounting that, which I wouldn't, Trump idolising a man that most in the civilised world would deem a regressive, criminal, homophobic tyrant and soviet era throwback, can't be a good thing for the world.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 9, 2016 14:27:08 GMT -5
Am I really the only one here that recalls what caused President Ford's defeat? His blanket pardon of Richard Nixon for any crimes he might have committed, even ones that might still be undiscovered. There was a firestorm among Liberals and others about that. Or his clueless handling of the economy where the only thing people recalled him doing was issue buttons for people to wear called WIP-Whip Inflation Now.His demeanor was a welcomed contrast as opposed to what the country experienced with Nixon but it was no surprise that Carter defeated him I think the pardon hurt him initially; but, wasn't that big of a factor in the 76 election. The state of the economy was far more on people's minds, by that point.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 14:28:21 GMT -5
I'm afraid I've never heard of any of those four people, so I wouldn't know. But the Russian thing just sounds like paranoia to me. Giuliani you'd most likely remember from being Mayor of New York City at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He was widely regarded as a hero back then, and certainly America's most looked-up-to mayor. Since then, he's sullied the goodwill that bought him -- at least, in the eyes of the left (and me, incidentally) -- by going bat-s**t, right-wing crazy -- suggesting that Barack Obama doesn't love America and that the biggest danger to an African America isn't from white police, but from other African Americans. I have no idea who the other three people Prince Hal mentioned are either. Not sure the Putin thing really is paranoia. You can't fail to have noticed that we've been on the brink of a new cold war for a while now. Even discounting that, which I wouldn't, Trump idolising a man that most in the civilised world would deem a regressive, criminal, homophobic tyrant and soviet era throwback, can't be a good thing for the world. I think what Trump likes in Putin is his pro-active, direct and "no-nonsense" attitude (where nonsense is a term open to interpretation). Terrorists are hiding in a town? Blow it up. A journalist speaks ill of you? Shut him up. Other countries criticize your actions? ***** them. Do your thing and let others moan as they like, because you're a leader and a leader leads; he doesn't constantly second-guess himself.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 9, 2016 15:00:10 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing too cody. It's a treat from hearing about politics in a history book. And you and Hal's first hand accounts are what make us youngins (well I don't feel young) appreciate how the system can work for the people despite it's flaws or the villains that might get into office. Was Nixon from his campaign suspected to be the crook he turned out to be? Policies aside, Trump has said a lot that seems counterproductive to appealing to the people of American rather than to a select group. So I can see why people are discouraged before he even officially takes office. Nixon was seen as crooked and manipulative by the left, going back to the Eisenhower years. He was often his own worst enemy. He was accused of influence peddling, leading to his infamous "Checkers Speech" about only accepting a beloved family dog. He was elected by a pretty handy margin in 68 and re-elected in a massive landslide in 1972 (which pleased my mother and older cousins to no end). Vietnam was at the center of a lot of things and was a mess that was the responsibility of both parties and presidents of both parties. With escalation came political knives and Nixon and his campaign engaged in a lot of dirty tricks. His Vice President, Spiro Agnew, was roiled in scandal and Nixon was surrounded by some pretty nasty and shady characters. They carried out all kinds of schenannigans, including the overthrow of Allende in Chile, and installing the Pinochet government. The break-in at the Watergate hotel (trying to break into the DNC headquarters). The burglars had cash that was traced to Nixon's Committee to Re-elect the President, (abbreviated as CRP, but known as CREEP to a wider audience, especially on the Left). Investigations revealed more and more corruption, including wiretapping, bribery, conspiracy and other charges. Falls guys were taking the blame and Congressional hearings led to one staggering revelation after another. Nixon was facing articles of impeachment, which were being prepared in the House and were likely to be approved. Unlike Johnson and Clinton, there was a strong possibility that the Senate would have voted Nixon out of office. Ford had been the House Minority Leader, during the Johnson Administration and part of the Warren Commission, investigating the assassination of Kennedy. He was selected to replace Agnew, after he resigned. he was often at odds with members of the Cabinet, though he kept on people like Kissinger after assuming the presidency. It is believed that Nixon agreed to resign (which was unprecedented) in exchange for an immediate pardon, which he got. It is debatable whether a potential criminal trial of a former or even sitting president would have been in the nation's best interests. Me, I'm a firm believer that criminals should answer for their crimes, in a court of law and it is especially necessary with those placed in a position of public trust and authority. However, he was removed from office, which is what most people seemed to want. The pardon was legal and Ford as under no obligation to carry it out. It is a constitutional right of the presidency as a check and balance against unfair sentencing by the judiciary (just as judicial review is a check and balance against unconstitutional laws). Nixon's character was fully brought out, by accident, in his famous interviews with David Frost. As the stage play and movie, Frost/Nixon, illustrates, the interviews had been largely boring, until Nixon made a statement suggesting the president was above the law and Frost came alive and grabbed hold of that statement, getting Nixon to outright make that claim. It was pretty much his epithet. In pop culture, Nixon was being ridiculed on all fronts. Rich Little, an impressionist/comedian, became nationally famous doing a Nixon impression, repeating, "I am not a crook!" repeating a statement from Nixon. Editorial cartoons savaged him, satirists mocked him. He was a cancer on the office of the president and was helping to tear apart the nation. Vietnam had badly wounded the country, the assassinations of the Kennedys and Martin Luther King, shocked and horrified us, civil rights were still a battleground, women's rights were becoming one, as was gay liberation. Watergate was like throwing battery acid on an open wound. Ford was roundly criticized and vilified for the pardon of Nixon; but, that was after the start. Then, economic issues became greater concern. There were two bumbling attempts on his life which added to the satirical take on Ford; even his assassins were incompetent. He lost to Jimmy Carter; but, Carter had a 33 point lead, at the end of the Democratic Convention and Ford came back, especially after their first presidential debate, to where it was neck and neck. In the end, Carter won with 297 electoral votes to 240, and 50.1% of the popular vote to 48.0% for Ford. It was so close that a mere 25, 000 vote swing in Ohio and Wisconsin would have given Ford the victory. Funny thing was, Carter and Ford became friends over time. Carter kept Ford in the loop after he left office and both bonded during the trip to Egypt, for the funeral of assassinated leader Anwar Sadat. Ford was considered too liberal by the conservative wing of the Republicans, led by Ronald Reagan.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 9, 2016 15:23:16 GMT -5
His foreign policy was still simply the machinations of Kissinger, who stayed on to wreak havoc in Indochina, the remark about Poland's being a free nation, the infamous WIN buttons and swine flu scare were other lowlights. Kissinger is a fascinating individual; he's like a character in a novel. Moriarty-like. He caused so much, so much pain in Southeast Asia while also getting the Nobel peace prize for it that it boggles the mind. As for the swine flu scare, it did give us this great line from Fly on the wall : "People said pigs couldn't fly and then swine flu".Man, I miss Fly! Ask Chileans how fascinating he was. He brought plenty of pain there, too. Never heard of Fly, but I love that line!
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Nov 9, 2016 15:39:08 GMT -5
Fly was a brilliant, brilliant poster over at CBR, very active in the late '90s and early 00s. I view him as a true genius; he would make incredible connections at will and come up with the line above as a matter of course. One of the most cringe-inducing ironies of my life is that he and I worked for five years right across the street from each other, never knew it, and never met.
As for Kissinger's infamy, yeah... it's in a class all its own. And he doesn't even have the excuse of having been an idiot; on the contrary, he strikes me as a remarkably intelligent politician... just one who didn't seem to mind that tens of thousands of people might die when he moved a piece on the chessboard, all for the greater good of his plan.
I read an essay by him in the '90s, and his arguments made a lot of sense on paper... but bloody hell, did we really need all those wars? I was told by Vietnamese friends how, when the French were pulling out, there was a lot of sympathy for the US in Indochina. Surely the country would back their attempt at finally breaking the yoke of foreign domination! Alas, that didn't quite work out. The domino effect was more of a concern than the well-being of the people actually living in that region.
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Post by Prince Hal on Nov 9, 2016 15:45:51 GMT -5
Giuliani you'd most likely remember from being Mayor of New York City at the time of the 9/11 attacks. He was widely regarded as a hero back then, and certainly America's most looked-up-to mayor. Since then, he's sullied the goodwill that bought him -- at least, in the eyes of the left (and me, incidentally) -- by going bat-s**t, right-wing crazy -- suggesting that Barack Obama doesn't love America and that the biggest danger to an African America isn't from white police, but from other African Americans. I have no idea who the other three people Prince Hal mentioned are either. Not sure the Putin thing really is paranoia. You can't fail to have noticed that we've been on the brink of a new cold war for a while now. Even discounting that, which I wouldn't, Trump idolising a man that most in the civilised world would deem a regressive, criminal, homophobic tyrant and soviet era throwback, can't be a good thing for the world. I think what Trump likes in Putin is his pro-active, direct and "no-nonsense" attitude (where nonsense is a term open to interpretation). Terrorists are hiding in a town? Blow it up. A journalist speaks ill of you? Shut him up. Other countries criticize your actions? ***** them. Do your thing and let others moan as they like, because you're a leader and a leader leads; he doesn't constantly second-guess himself. Nailed it! And Putin knows Trump has a dictator-crush on him. US intelligence agencies have said that Putin attempted to influence the race in Trump's favor. BTW: Christie is the sycophantic bully and despised-in-his-own-state New Jersey governor who's heading Trump's transition team and would love to be A-G; Conway is the campaign manger who said that once lies about your opponent are out there, oh well; and Flynn is Trump's defense "expert" who led chants of "Lock her up!" at the Republican convention in Cleveland. Between him doing that and Christie screaming that Clinton was guilty of every crime in the law books, it looked like a cross between the Salem Witch trials and the Soviet show trials.
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