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Post by the4thpip on Jan 12, 2017 11:18:48 GMT -5
Look, there is so much material out there right now, I would love to make fun of Trump.
But I cannot even look at SNL and the Daily Show. I cannot laugh at Trump, because I am so afraid. I barely slept for a week after he won the electoral college majority. Because I have my doubts about his sanity. And I know some of the people around him are evil.
And I envy those who see things differently for their peace of mind.
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 12, 2017 11:20:11 GMT -5
I'll load up on emojifaces. It's going to be a busy four years. Personally, I see more wisdom in being this guy: than this guy: but to each their own. We need them both. (Though not Chase specifically.)
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jan 12, 2017 11:23:14 GMT -5
Anyone who wants to believe that everyone of a certain political leaning is either evil or insane is practicing the very same intolerance they are fighting against. There, I said it. That's saying that insanity and evil do not exist. Um... where do you live, and how much is a ticket there? That doesn't appear to be the message at all, it seemed pretty clear that the message presented meant that if you don't like the level of discourse coming from the other side of the fence then don't add to that but rise above it and CHOOSE to elevate the standard of discourse which isn't only sage advice for one's personal life but is also the core spirit of the rules of the road here on the classic comics forum. There isn't even a single iota of grey area to this matter: There will be respectful discourse among everyone here regardless of who they chose to support in the election. Period. You can disagree with the ideas of public figures, and you can disagree with the ideas of your fellow posters but you cannot make it personal on either of those fronts. And if people cannot abide by that very basic tenet of logical argumentation than there will be consequences as we have rules on the forum for a reason.
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 12, 2017 11:39:17 GMT -5
There isn't even a single iota of grey area to this matter: There will be respectful discourse among everyone here regardless of who they chose to support in the election. Period. Well said, guardian!
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Post by the4thpip on Jan 12, 2017 11:51:08 GMT -5
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Post by Prince Hal on Jan 12, 2017 11:59:34 GMT -5
Satire Alert: Mildly humorous remark meant to stimulate thought. A Gathering of the Klans. Er, Clans...
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jan 12, 2017 12:00:19 GMT -5
Birds of a feather. Foreign Affairs had several articles on the rise of populism in their November/December issue. It was interesting to see how many populist movements, even if they all emphasize the "us vs them" aspect, have very different philosophies. Personally, I think the main reason for the current movement is the disenfranchisement of a large part of the population, witnessing how economic liberalization is benefiting a relatively small number of increasingly rich individuals or coteries and leaving the rest in the lurch. It was Sanders who had the right idea: what we need is a better redistribution of wealth. Or, in common parlance, "tax the rich". Not because the rich (even the billionaires) could provide enough tax revenues to fix society's problems, no. But by capping the amount of money one can make, we would defuse the current tendency of paying more and more money to managers and financiers, allowing a management system that would in the end be more fair for everyone. I have nothing against a progressive tax rate that goes all the way. If your hard work, stock options and other benefits mean you'd get a billion dollars a year for whatever you do, you can afford to pay 90% in tax. You'll still have a hefty 100 million bucks in your pocket.
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Post by the4thpip on Jan 12, 2017 12:11:52 GMT -5
Birds of a feather. Foreign Affairs had several articles on the rise of populism in their November/December issue. It was interesting to see how many populist movements, even if they all emphasize the "us vs them" aspect, have very different philosophies. Personally, I think the main reason for the current movement is the disenfranchisement of a large part of the population, witnessing how economic liberalization is benefiting a relatively small number of increasingly rich individuals or coteries and leaving the rest in the lurch. It was Sanders who had the right idea: what we need is a better redistribution of wealth. Or, in common parlance, "tax the rich". Not because the rich (even the billionaires) could provide enough tax revenues to fix society's problems, no. But by capping the amount of money one can make, we would defuse the current tendency of paying more and more money to managers and financiers, allowing a management system that would in the end be more fair for everyone. I have nothing against a progressive tax rate that goes all the way. If your hard work, stock options and other benefits mean you'd get a billion dollars a year for whatever you do, you can afford to pay 90% in tax. You'll still have a hefty 100 million bucks in your pocket. Hillary did better with the disenfranchised, though.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 12, 2017 12:30:02 GMT -5
Is Trump Hitler? No. Does Trump have the potential to become Hitler? Absolutely. His playbook to power and his agenda, to the extent you can parse it given his scattered and nigh incomprehensible "communication" style, is eerily similar to that put into play in 1933, as Wesley Dodd pointed out.
If he ain't a Fascist, he's the next best thing. And a whole lot of his advisers and supporters are absolutely fascists.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Jan 12, 2017 12:51:11 GMT -5
Is Trump Hitler? No. Does Trump have the potential to become Hitler? Absolutely. His playbook to power and his agenda, to the extent you can parse it given his scattered and nigh incomprehensible "communication" style, is eerily similar to that put into play in 1933, as Wesley Dodd pointed out. If he ain't a Fascist, he's the next best thing. And a whole lot of his advisers and supporters are absolutely fascists. I agree with all of this. And that leaves us with the question of what to do about it. You can rally those that oppose him towards a strategic plan of opposition, and you can try to convince people who are on the fence that there is a clear right and wrong here. Calling Trump Hitler accomplishes none of that. In fact, I would argue that kind of rhetoric radicalizes conservatives against seeing our point of view.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 12, 2017 12:52:01 GMT -5
If he ain't a Fascist, he's the next best thing. And a whole lot of his advisers and supporters are absolutely fascists. (emphasis mine)But, it should be noted, not all of them (I assume by "supporters" you mean those that voted for him). Many of those who voted Trump are no doubt decent, kind people with hearts of gold, who sincerely believe that Trump will make America great again. Personally, I think they're wrong and I think he's a dangerous, dangerous individual, but it's far too simplistic to say that even half of his supporters are out and out fascists. I think many of them just want a change from politics as usual and a better deal for their portion of society, which, rightly or wrongly, they genuinely believe Trump will provide for them.
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Post by Confessor on Jan 12, 2017 12:59:50 GMT -5
In fact, I would argue that kind of rhetoric radicalizes conservatives against seeing our point of view. I absolutely believe that. The more the liberal left (in any country, not just America) attack those who vote for populist right-wing politicians with accusations of racism or fascisim, the more it makes those people want to to vote for them anytway. People can be bullheaded and nobody likes being shouted at or insulted. It's human nature to just think, "well, f**k you, I'm gonna vote for them just to spite you then." These people begin to feel victimised and alienated, and become ever more resolute in voting for populist politicians, while lying about which way they've voted in opinion polls, because they are scared of getting shouted down and insulted by the leftist bullies. That's why things like Trump's election and the Brexit result were such shocks (although Brexit wasn't really a left-right thing, it was way more complex than that). We on the left need to engage the right in meaningful, measured dialogue, not just point our finger and bawl, "you're racist!" like we were still in kindergarten (to use the American term).
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Post by shaxper on Jan 12, 2017 13:08:47 GMT -5
We on the left need to engage the right in meaningful, measured dialogue, not just point our finger and bawl, "you're racist!" like we were still in kindergarten (to use the American term). Well said. When we are shaming and antagonizing those on the other side, the only effect we're having is creating resentment. The more strongly we feel we're right, the more important it is to make those people feel welcome here and WANTING to engage us in discourse where we have the potential to change their minds with rational and respectful discussion. Will it work? Usually no, but it's a hell of a lot more effective than the alternative. Getting pissed off and hateful never solves a damn thing, and it sure burns down the neighborhood in the process.
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Post by shaxper on Jan 12, 2017 13:14:40 GMT -5
I will not normalize the man and what he stands for by being friends with those who do not oppose him. Maintaining respect, civility, and relationships while fighting for what you believe in isn't normalization. It's civility. Trump terrifies me. I don't deny that in the slightest. But I'm not going to fracture relationships with people who don't see that; I'm going to try to use those relationships in order to help them see. My approach makes sense to me. I truly don't understand yours beyond a need for cathartic release. Hate is hate, regardless of which side espouses it.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 12, 2017 13:21:48 GMT -5
If he ain't a Fascist, he's the next best thing. And a whole lot of his advisers and supporters are absolutely fascists. (emphasis mine)But, it should be noted, not all of them (I assume by "supporters" you mean those that voted for him). Many of those who voted Trump are no doubt decent, kind people with hearts of gold, who sincerely believe that Trump will make America great again. Personally, I think they're wrong and I think he's a dangerous, dangerous individual, but it's far too simplistic to say that even half of his supporters are out and out fascists. I think many of them just want a change from politics as usual and a better deal for their portion of society, which, rightly or wrongly, they genuinely believe Trump will provide for them. Which is why I said a whole lot of them. A whole lot of them are also stupid. And a whole lot of them are incapable of telling fake news and opinion from actual fact. And a whole lot of them suffer from severe cognitive dissonance. And some are probably good people who made a really bad decision. The Republicans in the Senate made it clear last night that the Children's Health Insurance Program (CHIP) is not safe. I personally know at least a couple dozen people whose children have been on CHIP at some point in their lives (and many who still are) who voted for Trump and the Republican Senate and Congressional candidates. It's absolute lunacy.
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